The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (Stanford)

[00:00] We're going to be talking about how to grow your power. The reason why you should pay attention to this is because it leads to a lot of good things. Salary, getting promoted, being happy in your career, being less stressed. You're not describing how the world should work. It's this is just how it is. Not only is, but how it was and how it will be. The seven rules of power. Get out of your own way. Break the rules. Show up in a powerful fashion. Create a powerful brand. Network relentlessly. Use your power and understand that once you've acquired power, what you did to [00:30] get there will be forgiven forgotten or this is not about personality these are skills that can be massive people might be hearing this and they're like i don't want to be this person well you already have done a fabulous job of illustrating principle one that is one way to get in our way if i think power is dirty the first thing that's going to happen is i'm not going to do what i need to do to be successful in my course the opening quote to your book that i have here if you want power to be used for good more good people need to have power that's exactly right [01:03] Today my guest is Jeffrey Pfeffer. Jeffrey is a professor of organizational behavior at Stanford's Graduate School of Business [01:10] and teaches one of the two most popular and oversubscribed courses in all of the MBA program called the Paths to Power. [01:17] The other class by the way is Touchy-Feely, which we dove into last month. [01:20] In his class and in his recent book, The Seven Rules of Power, Jeffrey teaches the things that you can do in your life and in your work to build your power. And through that, get things done and advance in your career. As one student described the class, it's the cod liver oil of the Graduate School of Business. You know it's good for you, but you feel a little nervous about it. In our conversation, we dig into each of the seven powers, why it's important to build these skills, even if you feel uncomfortable.

[01:50] of the power in action and the impact it has had on people's lives, why it isn't as cringy or scary as you may think. I was actually nervous to have this conversation and I ended up being a huge fan of Jeffrey and the work that he does. We end the conversation with what you can start doing today to start building your own power. This podcast is basically for anyone that wants to advance in their career, whether you're an IC or a CO, and I'm really excited to bring it to you. [02:20] your favorite podcasting app or YouTube, it's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Jeffrey Pfeffer. [02:29] Jeffrey, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Thank you Lenny, I am honored. [02:39] that you invited me on. I'm even more honored that you decided to come on. [02:43] We're going to be talking about something that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. [02:46] I think it's going to make me uncomfortable. [02:49] We're going to be talking about how to grow your power in life and in business. [02:54] Let me just start by asking, why does this stuff make people uncomfortable? And why is it still important for people to learn how to do this well? [03:02] Well, it's important because a guy named Gerald Ferris [03:06] had developed a scale of kind of political skill and a bunch of he he and a bunch of his colleagues over the years did a lot of empirical research that demonstrates that political skill is associated with a lot of positive outcomes salary

[03:24] getting promoted. [03:25] Being happy in your career, being happy in your job, being less stressed. So the reason why you should pay attention to this is because it leads to a lot of good things. [03:36] The reason why it makes people uncomfortable, you said it made you uncomfortable. Maybe I should ask you the question, why does it make you uncomfortable? [03:44] There's a lot of things here that are probably not how people want to [03:48] want to live their life necessarily or want other people to act? Yeah. So I think it makes people uncomfortable because the realities of what it takes to get power are [03:57] They are almost no resemblance to what you're taught in Sunday school or the mosque or wherever, how your parents raised you. They bear almost no resemblance to how we think the world ought to be. [04:11] They bear a little resemblance [04:14] you know, to our aspirations. And I think we look around the world and we see people who have acquired enormous amounts of power, [04:23] And I've used it. [04:24] Forbanned. [04:26] You know, but I tell people, you know, I see people with hammers hitting other people on the head. That does not mean that a hammer is not a useful tool. [04:33] You can take a screwdriver and stab it into somebody's belly. I have a very dear friend who we'll probably talk about later in the podcast, Laura Esserman, who's a breast cancer surgeon. [04:43] And I tell people, Laura has a knife. She uses it to cure cancer. [04:48] Muggers have knives, they use it to rob people. So I think we've confused... [04:53] the tool for how it has been used.

[04:56] You also have this quote that the people who need to understand power and build their power skills [05:00] Our people come from backgrounds or characteristics who would normally put them at a disadvantage. [05:04] I think that's exactly right. [05:06] I will go this Sunday... [05:10] to Nashville, Tennessee to talk to a bunch of people of color in the NFL who are trying to rise up the ranks. [05:18] And I, you know, the Stanford runs a program because the NFL is serious. I think about trying to make more opportunity for people, underrepresented minorities, [05:30] But these are folks who will not... [05:33] succeed unless they learn power skills because the world is stacked against them in lots of ways [05:41] this episode is brought to you by wizard empowering product leaders to ideate and iterate faster than ever before with the power of ai as a product manager i often spend hours taking screenshots and then annotating them with feedback for my team with wizard i can simply [06:03] that I can then take, make tweaks to, and then share with my teams in minutes. And when I want to get really creative and explore totally new ways to improve our product experience, I can use Wizard's AI to generate new design concepts from simple text prompts and turn them into interactive prototypes effortlessly. There's a reason that over 2.6 million people have trusted Wizard to accelerate every phase of their product life cycle and speed

[06:33] to speed up their development. Wizards drag-and-drop editor is super easy to use, and you can collaborate in real time with your entire team. Even your CEO and customer service teams can contribute. Unlock all of Wizards game-changing AI-powered features and more with 25% off Wizards Pro Annual Plan. Visit uizard.io slash Lenny and use code Lenny to check out today. That's uizard.io slash Lenny. [07:04] This episode is brought to you by Webflow. We're all friends here, so let's be real for a second. We all know that your website shouldn't be a static asset. It should be a dynamic part of your strategy that drives conversions. That's business 101. But here's a number for you. 54% of leaders say web updates take too long. That's over half of you listening right now. That's where Webflow comes in. [07:33] web pages fast. That means you can set ambitious business goals and your site can rise to the challenge. [07:40] Learn how teams like Dropbox, IDEO, and Orange Theory trust Webflow to achieve their most ambitious goals today at webflow.com. [07:51] Another element of your course that you try to make clear in your syllabus [07:54] is to teach people not to be as judgmental [07:56] You also have this whole huge bold phrase, "This class is not for everyone." [08:01] Can you just talk a bit about maybe why it's not for everyone and then why being less judgmental is important?

[08:07] I mean, the class is extremely popular. I have a long waiting list. [08:10] kind of mythical, and because of the principle of social influence, [08:15] You know, we are influenced by what other people do. We're influenced on our choices of restaurants. We're influenced on our choices of music. You know, I'm not sure I like Taylor Swift, but I certainly want to go see Taylor Swift because everybody else is. You know, and many people sign up for the class. And one year in particular, [08:31] There were some people who sat in about the third row up directly in front of me, and they looked every day like they were having some... [08:40] terrible thing put up some horrible orifice or something. They looked literally in pain. And so I decided [08:47] And of course, they learn nothing. If you come to the class and you're in that much [08:51] psychological discomfort, you're not going to learn anything. And so what I [08:56] try to do [08:58] is tell people that in order to benefit from this class, you have to be open to learning the material. And if you're not, and by the way, this would be true for any class. If you go to physics and you say, I don't like physics, I hate physics, I don't believe in physics, I don't believe in the theory of physics, whatever, you're not going to learn anything. And so I'm trying to get the class. [09:19] given those huge waiting lists, I'm trying to get the class to have people in it who are, in fact, going to benefit from it rather than sit there and look like, um, [09:28] look like they're in pain. And the judgmental thing [09:32] You know, if Matthew 7... [09:34] Judge not that you be not judged. The Quran says only Allah can judge people.

[09:40] The American poet, well-witmered, [09:42] said, be curious, not judgmental. [09:46] Mother Teresa, [09:47] Sad. [09:49] if you judge people, you have no time to love them. Judgment, if I need to build a positive relationship with Lenny, [09:57] Because you are on my critical path in my job. [10:00] and jobs necessarily entail a reasonable amount of interdependence. I get things done through and with other people. [10:08] If I decide that Lenny is... [10:13] whatever set of bad adjectives you want to use, dumb, incompetent, immoral, whatever. My ability to build a positive relationship with you [10:23] and you remain on my critical path becomes almost zero, unless you're a better actor, or I'm a better actor than I think most people are. So therefore, you should suspend judgment. [10:34] In the sense that if somebody is on your critical path, the only judgment you should make is they're on my critical path. If I want to get something done, I need their collaboration and cooperation. And the fact that I may not like them is, in fact, irrelevant. [10:49] And as I have taught, [10:50] senior executives over the years [10:53] It is absolutely clear to me that one of the skills that they have mastered is they have a skill that you cannot tell what they think of you. [11:02] And that's important because I need your collaboration. I need your cooperation. And if I leak down [11:09] you know in ways that say i don't respect you i don't like you i don't admire you whatever my odds of getting you to work productively with me goes essentially to zero

[11:19] So that's the judgmental story. [11:21] Does that make sense? Absolutely. And I have a quote from your syllabus along these lines. Not everyone we encounter in Paths to Power is someone you're going to want to emulate. [11:28] This is a class about how to get things done, how to build and wield influence. [11:31] And there are multiple ways to accomplish these objectives. [11:35] Yeah. [11:36] So I've had two friends actually go through the course. One I asked about the course of the impact it had on her. She's actually a founder now. [11:42] and she told me that your class was her single most favorite class at all of Stanford Business School [11:47] because it was realistic and applicable to life as a founder. [11:51] Because it didn't sugarcoat business, it didn't sugarcoat life. [11:55] I told her how the world really works and that is helping her succeed with her startup right now. [12:00] i'm thank you there's no higher praise than that i mean i mean you know i actually don't read i shouldn't probably say this in the public but i don't actually read my course evaluations [12:10] because the impact I want to have [12:13] is not to have people like me, but to have that kind of impact, to make people more successful, more effective in their lives. [12:22] That is a good segue to any of your rules of power, so let's just talk about [12:26] your seven rules of power. [12:27] I actually have your book right here. And if folks want to learn more, here it is, Seven Rules of Power. This is your fourth book about power, and this is your best book about power, because it basically summarizes [12:36] everything you've learned in a really cohesive way. [12:39] So let me first share the seven rules of power and then I'm going to dive into a few of them. Does that sound good? [12:43] That sounds perfect. Okay, so the seven rules. One, get out of your own way. Two, break the rules.

[12:49] Three... [12:50] appear powerful, [12:51] 4. [12:52] Build a powerful brand? [12:54] Network relentlessly. [12:56] Use your power. [12:57] and success excuses almost. [13:01] Everything, correct. [13:02] Okay, success excuses everything almost. Got it. [13:06] Okay, so... [13:08] Let me start with Power 4, which is around personal brand. And the reason I want to start here is I have a friend that's actually in your class right now, Raf. [13:15] and I saw that he started a podcast. [13:17] And he told me that he did it because it was [13:19] Part of the homework that you give students, you call it Doing Power? Is that the name of the homework assignments? I have. So we give them a bunch of assignments throughout the class, which are self-reflective assignments, but their big thing for the class is they have to do power. They have to do something during the quarter [13:37] to take the principles of the class, of what they're learning, and put them into practice. And that is because... [13:43] You know, everything I do, I have to do for a reason. That is because if you don't use what you learn, [13:49] the learning will disappear. So if you go to a French class... [13:53] and you learn French and you never speak French, in a relatively short period of time, you'll forget everything you learn. And I want the learning to stick with them, so I try to get them, [14:04] to do something with it. [14:06] While we're on this tangent, because I wanted to talk about this whole... You have a book, The Doing... [14:10] Knowing gap. The knowing doing gap. [14:12] So let's just spend a little time there because I think that's really important. [14:15] What are some examples of things that have come out of people doing these homework assignments, things that maybe led to something interesting?

[14:21] Let me take my most extreme example. [14:25] My mostly extreme example is probably Derek Khan, K-A-N. And Derek Khan was a little bit older when he went through the MBA program. [14:35] And in 2012, [14:37] his doing power project [14:40] was to get appointed [14:42] to be [14:44] Mitt Romney's. [14:46] it was Mitt Romney who was running for president, to be head of economic policy for the Romney campaign. [14:51] Believe it or not, he was offered the job. Believe it or not, he turned it down for reasons which we could go into if you want, but aren't that interesting. [14:58] He wound up [15:00] relatively soon thereafter. [15:03] as number three in the transportation department, working for Elaine Chao. [15:08] And I have a picture of him. When he comes to the class, I introduce him. I tell students, I give them a trigger warning. [15:14] and I introduced him, he wound up at the end of the Trump administration [15:19] as the Deputy Director of the Office of Management and Budget. And since [15:24] Typical of the Trump administration, by that time there was no director. He essentially ran the $6 trillion U.S. budget. This is six years out of business school. [15:35] I was thinking whether he got that during his class. [15:38] Amazing. [15:39] Okay, so this is a success story of doing power. [15:43] Let's talk about this first power of building brand. And I think this is where people start to feel comfortable. They're going to be like, "Oh, no, I don't want to be doing this. Why? This doesn't feel good to me." So let's talk about it. So talk about this power of building a personal brand.

[15:58] There are, by definition, [16:00] Fewer positions at the top than at the bottom. [16:03] the world we may not like this and i know people you know the late tony shane [16:09] Zappos tried to do, you know, holacracy or whatever. But the world is essentially hierarchical. The animal kingdom is hierarchical. [16:18] It is better to be at the top than at the bottom for a number of reasons. Okay. [16:22] If that is true, [16:24] If there are fewer positions at the top than at the bottom, [16:29] then your job [16:31] to advance your career is to figure out how to get promoted. [16:36] There are many ways to get promoted, but I will guarantee you one thing. [16:40] No one is going to promote Lenny. [16:42] If they don't know who the hell you are. [16:43] So it is not sufficient for them to know who you are. They have to know that you're smart and personable and have whatever skills you got. [16:50] But they have to know you. If they don't know you... [16:54] you cannot choose what is not in your head you know that better than i do [17:00] So, [17:01] Therefore, you have to do something to differentiate yourself. You have to build a brand. So when I think of letting your podcast, I think of something. [17:09] Not just 25 billion podcasts. When I think of somebody [17:15] In McKinsey. [17:17] or Bain or BCG, one of the consulting firms. [17:22] A gazillion people start off [17:24] as frontline consultants. [17:27] What are you going to do?

[17:29] So that somebody knows who you are. What are you going to do that creates value for the firm and for you? [17:35] So my friend Keith Ferrazzi, when he started at Deloitte Consulting, [17:38] did not do the spreadsheet stuff that he was by the way not very good at and didn't like he started the lincoln quality award he decided to try to take deloitte's [17:50] brand recognition from about one or 2% to 30%. He was appointed, though he left before he actually took the job, to the position of partner and the first chief marketing officer at Deloitte. I have another friend, Tristan Walker, who wanted to get hired at Foursquare. [18:07] You know, he sent emails to the founder, the founder ignored him. [18:13] So Tristan Walker did something I think very bold, [18:16] Tristan Walker. [18:18] Began signing up partnerships. So one day the founder says holy god. He signed up Starbucks. Maybe I'll hire this guy so So you have to do something that causes people to know who you are and that is what building a brand is about [18:35] It sounds very benign put that way. [18:38] When people hear, I need to build a personal brand, it sounds like I need to post on LinkedIn, I need to post on Twitter, start a newsletter, start a podcast, which I know is a kind of a part of it, but [18:46] What are some examples you've seen of ways to build a personal brand that are effective [18:50] So I have a friend who I bring to the class, a lovely, tall Asian woman named Laura Chow, who made partner at a venture capital firm after four years, which is fast.

[19:00] Law works for Canaan Parker, C-A-N-A-A-N. [19:05] Law said I do not work for Andreessen Horowitz. [19:08] I do not work for Sequoia. I don't work for Greylock. I don't work for any of these very visible, large, [19:16] you know, VC firms. So if I am going [19:20] to get deals in the consumer space. That's her [19:24] Domain of expertise is consumer and consumer tech. [19:27] Somebody is going to have to know. [19:29] Who our chow is. Because again... [19:32] You're not going to get the deal if nobody knows who you are. And so she... [19:39] basically did everything you talked about. [19:42] She did write it. [19:45] She started a podcast in which she invited influential people. [19:49] She [19:51] contributed to a book she helped people out she did networking dinners she did everything she could so that people would recognize and know our child [20:04] And one of the things she did... [20:07] was [20:08] She's tall. [20:10] In general, Asian women are not tall. She decided to play up the fact that she was, in the words of some people, [20:17] the tallest Asian woman they'd ever seen, she wears heels. In her heels, she's six feet one inches tall. She also, when she comes to my class, many people come to my class in hoodies, God knows what. She has style. [20:29] And it's a unique style. So she thinks about very strategically, how am I going to dress? How am I going to look? How am I going to show up? How am I going to do what I need to do so that people know who I am? Obviously, there's substance.

[20:44] If you have visibility without substance, people will know you're like useless. But if you have substance without visibility, no one will know [20:53] The substance that you got. [20:55] You also talk about how you can reframe this idea of not being self-promotional, but it's [21:01] amplifying the impact of the team that I work with, or it's me [21:05] scaling myself by sharing things I know and pointing people to it. [21:09] Absolutely. Absolutely. [21:11] Awesome. Okay, so let's move on to a different power. Let's talk about power one, which is getting out of your own way. Talk about what that means and how someone can work on that. [21:20] Well, you already have done a fabulous job of illustrating principle one by talking about how this is a topic that makes people uncomfortable. [21:29] And when something makes people uncomfortable, [21:32] In general, they're going to shy away from us. [21:35] So if I think power is dirty, if I think power is evil, if I think power is something I want nothing to do with, the first thing that's going to happen is I'm not going to do what I need to do to be successful in my career. [21:50] So that is one way in which we get in our own way. Another way in which we get in our own way, many people suffer from what is called in the psychology literature, imposter syndrome. [22:00] They believe that they were the admissions mistake at Stanford. They were the hiring mistake in whatever company they're working for. That somehow they got to this job, but they don't really deserve to be there because they're surrounded by people who are smarter and better. [22:14] And therefore they will do things

[22:18] I can't even believe this goes on. So I will have students, not many, but a few, raise their hand. I will call them. And the first things out of their mouth will be. [22:28] I don't know if this comment is going to be useful. [22:32] This is called preemptory apology. [22:35] Don't, you know, if the comment's not very useful, don't say it. That's number one. But number two, don't apologize. You know, pardon me for interrupting. [22:43] Pardon me. [22:44] for you know taking up your time pardon you know the [22:49] Stop all this apologizing if you got the job you're in. [22:54] you probably are not only qualified, you're probably overqualified. So don't use descriptors of yourself that disempower you. [23:04] Don't think of yourself as not deserving of the job that you hold because that [23:10] Attitude will leak out and other people will say, you know, if Lenny doesn't think he deserves a job, then maybe I shouldn't think he deserves a job. [23:19] So basically the first power is you're shooting yourself in the foot. [23:22] by worrying too much about whether people like you. [23:25] This friend of mine who's now the founder that I read some quotes from, she said her number one takeaway from your class is if you want to be like, [23:31] Get a dog. That's correct. [23:33] That is a quote from my dear friend Gary Loveman, who for many years ran Harrah's, which then became Caesars, the casino company. [23:43] You also talk about this, yeah, this is quote I have, acknowledge that others are often no better than you. [23:48] Yep.

[23:49] Because that makes you feel better about this story. So for people that actually want to be liked, I like being liked. Like, I don't know if it's a flaw in my upbringing. [23:58] Is there... is the lesson you can't... you're capped on your power if you worry about... if you want to be liked? [24:04] At the end of the day, you don't want to be intentionally disliked. You don't want to violate my dear friend Bob Sutton's book, The No Asshole Rule, and gratuitously be an asshole. [24:15] but you are high work. [24:18] to get a job done. [24:20] You know, it's interesting. I unfortunately am now too old. In the words of my chiropractor, I'm suffering from too many birthdays. So I I have a lot of doctors who are doing a great job. [24:33] Trust me, when I choose a doctor, I have a, unfortunately, he retired, a neurosurgeon who did two surgeries on my spine. He's considered to be one of the top 20 in the country. [24:44] If you go on Yelp, [24:46] you read about his personality and his office furniture. [24:50] You know, as I said to somebody, he's doing micro surgery on my spine. I can wind up permanently paralyzed. I really don't care about his personality. I don't care about his office furniture. That's an extreme example, but it makes the point. When you are put in a role, you are put in a role because presumably you are supposed to perform in that role. [25:11] If you get appointed to be a head coach, if we make you a quarterback on an NFL team or we make you... [25:17] you know center on a national basketball association team you know you would you did not get that job because people thought you had acute personality you got that job because you have the skills to make your organization successful and if you do not use those skills because you're worried about what everybody else is thinking

[25:38] You are not only harming yourself, but you're harming them. [25:42] because you are not doing what you were hired to do. [25:46] So a simple way of thinking about this, which makes me feel better about like as we talk through this, I'm becoming less uncomfortable with these, which is a good sign. [25:53] It's don't actively try to be disliked. It's don't prioritize being liked, prioritize competence. [25:58] Correct. Absolutely. And doing the thing that needs to be done. Absolutely. Okay, great. [26:05] Let's talk about rule number two, which is [26:07] Break the rules. So basically... [26:09] Again, these powers are ways to grow power, and you're saying that if you break the rules, you... [26:14] get more power. Talk about why that's the case, what that looks like. [26:17] The model for many reasons number one when you break the rules you stand out you become memorable when you do something that's unexpected and being memorable is of course important as we've already discussed that's number one number two. [26:31] The rules were made mostly [26:34] by the people who are favored by the rules in place. So, [26:39] If we were talking about business strategy, we would talk about a word that is probably now overused. We would talk about being a disruptor. [26:47] that you would disrupt an industry. And how do you disrupt an industry? By doing something that is different from the other industry incumbents. In Southwest Airlines, you don't do hub and spoke. [26:57] In Amazon, you provide an incredible level of customer service. Whole Foods, you don't optimize on the cost of the stuff in your store, but you optimize on fitting local taste. Whatever. You would be a disruptor. You would do things that are different.

[27:14] The same principle holds for you. [27:16] that if you're going to be successful, you have to do what number one plays to your strengths, to use the title of a Gallup book, [27:23] Number two, you have to do [27:26] You have to do things again that cause you to stand out and you have to do things that basically, you know, will make you more successful. One of the conventional wisdoms that people... [27:36] I think adhere to way too much is [27:40] Don't ask... [27:42] Don't ask. Don't ask for help. You need to show self-sufficiency. So my colleague Francis Flynn, Frank Flynn, wrote an article with Vanessa Lakin titled, If You Need Help, Just Ask. [27:52] And it turns out people overestimate how many people are going to have to ask. [27:57] to get help. [27:58] And it turns out asking for help makes people uncomfortable. [28:01] But when you, you know, [28:03] I was married, you know, and if you read the acknowledgements, in... [28:09] Seven Rules of Power. For more than 35 years, I was married to Kathleen Frances Fowler, who I could send you a picture. I mean, she looked literally like a supermodel. And I didn't I never have been any particularly better looking than I am now. So somebody said to me, how did you get her? [28:25] To go out with you. And the answer, of course, is... [28:28] Power. [28:29] I asked, I asked, I asked. No one... [28:33] Well, maybe not no one, but few people are going to go out with you if you don't ask them out. Few people are going to marry you if you don't ask them to marry. Few people are going to do anything if you don't ask. And what is the worst that could happen if you ask and they say no?

[28:48] You are no worse off than had you not asked in the first place. Because if you don't ask, you're not going to get it. If you ask and they say, no, you're not going to get it. [28:56] Get over your ego. Ask. [28:59] Is there another example that comes to mind if someone breaking the rules, say in business, that ended up being really successful as a result or just someone that is really good at this in business? [29:07] I can give you many examples. One of my favorite examples would be Jason Calacanis. [29:13] I don't know if you know Jason. Oh, yeah. I know you did a case study on him. [29:16] Yeah, yeah. I know him well. Yeah, yeah. So I think Jason... [29:20] Jason, I think consistently breaks all kinds of rules. [29:24] First of all, when he comes to my class, nobody likes him, but that's okay. Almost nobody likes him. But, you know... That's power number one. He's not worried about... Yeah, that's number one. But also... [29:36] I think there is a conventional wisdom in the venture capital industry [29:40] which he defies almost completely. [29:43] You know, he makes a lot of little bets, not a few big bets. He is, he runs a very lean operation. He doesn't have a lot of partners. He doesn't have actually any partners, so he can't be fired by his partners. He began his career. [29:58] In journalism, [30:00] And which is interesting, you know, being a journalist is a wonderful job because you get to ask people all kinds of questions. And if you ask smart people questions and you have some reasonable level of intelligence yourself, at the end of that process, you're going to wind up incredibly smart and incredibly insightful. And he wound up incredibly smart and insightful around aspects of the Internet.

[30:23] And he definitely has a lot of power. I'm going to link to the case study in our show notes where you basically walk through how he went from nothing to a very powerful person. And by the way, a very rich person as well. [30:34] Let's talk about another power [30:36] Power 5, networking relentlessly. [30:39] What does that look like and how do you get better at this? [30:42] Well, I think there's research that shows that many people find networking dirty. [30:47] And that's because I think they think about it in the wrong way. [30:51] My friend John Levy, [30:53] who has written a fabulous book, [30:55] You're invited. [30:56] which is a book about how to put on events that people want to come to, is a fabulous human being, will tell you that the first principle of networking is, in fact, generosity. [31:07] It is generosity. What can I do for you? [31:09] How can I be helpful? Who can I introduce you to? Either a company or a product or a person who can be helpful to you in your career. [31:19] But in order to be able to introduce you to someone who is going to be useful to you, [31:26] I have to know people. If I don't know anybody, I can't introduce you to anybody. And the more people I know, the more likely it will be [31:34] that if you say I need to know somebody in X, I will know that person. [31:40] So the broader your social network, [31:43] the more people and the more things you will know. [31:46] If knowledge is power, networking is a fabulous way to get knowledge about people and about ideas. [31:53] It's funny to hear this where it's like, yes, obviously this is right, but...

[31:58] connecting it to if you want to [32:00] become more powerful, more successful. You need to do this. I think that is a powerful [32:04] point that we're all making here is just like this actually is necessary if you want to acquire more power. [32:10] Of course. [32:11] I have a funny story about networking. So... [32:15] We have a thing at Stanford called View from the Top, in which these fancy people come in and give a talk. And one of the people came in and gave a talk and made my class instantly popular because he's an extraordinarily wealthy person. His name is Omid Kordesani. [32:28] And so I said, I reached out to him, I said, "Omid, [32:32] Let's have breakfast. [32:33] so i can understand because during the thing when he somebody asked him what class was the most [32:39] important. [32:40] In his success, he said mine. So I said, tell me your story. He said, well, you know, I, [32:45] I graduated from Stanford, a Persian background, immigrant background, an engineer, [32:51] HPE! [32:52] All the things that would make you kind of a nerd or something. He said I went to work. [32:57] For a couple of startups, they didn't do well. [33:00] Then I found myself in the mid-90s at Netscape. [33:02] The browser company, big deal anyway, Mark Andreessen. Oh, yeah. [33:07] Okay, so I found myself in Netscape. [33:10] In marketing and business development, [33:12] I was not... [33:13] making any progress. So one day I decided to take your class to an extreme. [33:20] I decided to stop doing my job. [33:23] So... [33:26] I said, when people gave you projects to do or assignments or tasks and you didn't do them, he said, it turns out that I spent my time not obviously at the bar, but in networking, first with people inside of Netscape and networking.

[33:39] Turns out if you're well connected to the senior leaders, they don't really care if you do your job or not. [33:43] That's number one. Number two, [33:45] He said, you know, oftentimes I can find other people to do the work I was doing. [33:50] So instead of basically spending time doing my job, I now worked first within Netscape. [33:56] But Netscape was not that big a company. [33:58] So after a while, he decided to go through, which is, by the way, his job anyway, in marketing and biz dev. He decided to basically drive to the Silicon Valley talking to people. [34:09] And this is, you know, the browsers are just beginning. [34:14] nobody knows what a browser is nobody knows what the internet is going to become so he's having all these fabulous conversations [34:20] All right, so he now knows basically everybody. It's 1998 and a little tiny company [34:27] decides 10 engineers, typical Silicon Valley company, 10 engineers, all engineers, [34:33] I have a friend who went to work for a company, run a company, had 26 people. He didn't have one sales and marketing person. Anyway, the company's now 10 engineers. They decide they need to hire their first business person. [34:42] Being an analytically oriented company, they say we're going to do this very analytically. We are basically going to ask everybody we can think of and a few people we can't. [34:52] Give us a list. [34:53] of the best technically oriented business people that you know [34:59] And there is, of course, one name. [35:01] that appears on every list. [35:03] It is omid cordystonic. [35:05] who becomes employee number 11 at Google.

[35:09] and makes $2.5 billion. [35:12] Great success from networking. [35:15] Well done. [35:17] When people hear about networking, it just feels, like you said, very cringe. I don't want to go to these networking events and try to pretend to talk and care about people. Do you have any advice for just how to make networking feel? [35:27] Less cringy. [35:28] One of the exercises I give my students is, you know, I say, [35:33] Write a list of 10 people. [35:36] who, if you knew them, [35:38] and if they knew you, would be important [35:41] for whatever you're trying to accomplish in your career. So maybe you're trying to get into biotech, you need to know 10 executives in biotech or whatever. [35:51] Make a list of 10 people. Then for each person, figure out how you're going to meet them. [35:57] You know, by the way, not necessarily the networking event. [36:01] Maybe [36:02] Maybe you want to do what John Levy does, which is hold dinners in which, by the way, the guests do the cooking, which is a very interesting idea. That, of course, taps into the IKEA effect. You always like something better. If you. [36:13] participating in creating it. Maybe you want to hold dinners, maybe you want to hold [36:18] um maybe you want to try try to reach out to them at lunch maybe you want to reach out to them and say here's an article i think you'd be interested in [36:27] Here is somebody who I think you benefit from meeting. [36:31] You know, so recently, I mean, I'm not a particularly good networker, though I'm better, I guess, than some people. I recently met Esther Wojcicki.

[36:40] I'm sure. [36:41] you know, killed her name. She's considered the grandmother of Silicon Valley. Susan was just his mother. [36:49] and she is interested in depression. [36:52] uh particularly depression among teenagers and i said you should know leanne williams who's in the psychiatry and behavioral science department who is [37:01] done probably 300 articles on depression and has invented something which is called precision psychiatry. So I connected them to each other. [37:09] You know, I just sent an email. I think you ought to know each other. They got together. I get credit for knowing people and connecting them. But I also benefit them. Leanne needs to raise money. Esther's got money. [37:21] Esther needs to understand the cutting edge research in depression and biomarkers of depression, which is what Leon's specialty is. So they benefit. So this is not. [37:32] This is not some icky thing. This is connecting people who benefit from being connected. [37:38] It touches on something you teach in the book is... [37:40] in your networking, you want to [37:42] Become a broker? [37:43] You want to be central. That's kind of what you want to work on. Can you talk a bit about what that means? Well, that means you want to connect people. So many people with benefits and many groups with benefits are being connected, and they're not connected. What does a venture capitalist do? [37:57] Connects people with ideas. [37:59] the people with money. [38:01] and takes a fee for doing it what does an investment banker do [38:04] connects people trying to sell businesses or raise capital with people trying to buy businesses or who have capital.

[38:11] What's a real estate agent? [38:12] Connect buyers and sellers of houses. I mean, there are all kinds of examples where the person's entire job is connecting people. [38:21] But even for the people whose job it isn't, [38:24] You benefit from knowing people. The more people you know, the more things you know. As I sometimes say in my class, [38:33] If leadership [38:35] Management, call it what you will, is getting things done through other people. It seems like common sense that the more other people you know, the more you'll be able to get done. [38:44] Yeah. [38:45] As someone that has become central to a lot of things in the product world and has... [38:49] built a large network as a result of this podcast newsletter i can tell you a thousand percent this [38:54] creates a lot of opportunity and [38:56] power, you could say in quotes. [38:59] So I've seen it happen. [39:00] Of course. [39:03] This episode is brought to you by Heap, the product analytics solution that shows you everything users do on your digital product, website, mobile product, or other digital services. We all know a great digital experience when we see it. It's intuitive, it anticipates your needs, and it makes it easy for you to do your job. [39:31] Want to know how your users behave across platforms? What keeps them coming back? What they're doing that you're not even aware of? Well, I have some great news for you. Heap captures all of this user activity for you automatically and then gives you definitive answers to all your questions about user behavior in seconds, not weeks.

[40:01] to get started with a demo. That's heap.io/lenny. [40:09] Another lesson I guess you teach is to pursue weak ties. Talk a bit about what that means. What do you mean by that? [40:14] Well, the people to whom you are strongly tied... [40:17] your family, [40:19] your spouse, significant other. [40:21] your friends, [40:22] The people who work with you at work will probably, because they are close to you, know the same things. [40:29] and the same people that you do. [40:31] So to the extent that you build ties with people who are more... [40:36] different from you, [40:37] in every dimension, you are more likely to learn [40:41] Non-redundant information. [40:43] and come in contact with people that you don't already know. [40:47] This again seems common sense. There's a lot of research behind it. Mark Granovetter, a sociologist who still teaches at Stanford, wrote a book entitled The Strength of Weak Ties. [40:58] And that's and basically [41:00] No, actually, pardon me, he wrote an article. [41:03] called The Strength of the Weak Ties. His book was called Getting a Job. [41:07] And he did a study. [41:09] I guess it was at that time in Boston. He did a study of job seekers in Massachusetts, and he looked at people who got jobs [41:17] through applying to ads, [41:20] through more formal means. And then he looked at people who got jobs through referrals from their network. And it turns out, of course, the jobs that you get through your network referrals are much better jobs. And oftentimes the best jobs that people got were referred to them by people that were not particularly close to them.

[41:39] because they had [41:41] They had... [41:42] They had a... [41:44] a view that's the word i was looking for a view into [41:49] the [41:50] ecosystem of the Boston labor market. [41:53] that the other people didn't have because they weren't in the same [41:58] place as the other people i love that lesson [42:01] Let's talk about another power, which is using your power. [42:05] So when people think of using your power builds more power, that's not intuitive. [42:10] You talk about how it creates this self-perpetuating growth of power, the more you practice power. Can you talk a bit about that? Sure. [42:17] So when you were given, you know, it's interesting. My friend, Deborah Gunfeld, who wrote a book called Acting with Power, [42:24] talks a lot about people's ambivalence to power. So sometimes people are put in a job. Herminia Barra, who teaches now at London Business School, at one point taught at Inseada, at one point taught at Harvard, has an article in the Harvard Business Review in which she talks about a woman in a... [42:42] drug company who gets a promotion and says to her colleagues, [42:47] to whom she's now overseeing, that she's not sure why she got the job. She's not sure she deserves a job. [42:55] Needless to say, she didn't do very well in this job because she got in her own way. But part of this is you are put in a position [43:02] of power, you put in a position of authority in order to make things happen. So to the extent you mobilize your resources and get things to happen,

[43:12] you will get more resources. [43:14] People people want to be associated with success to the extent that you become successful. More people will want to work with you. [43:20] To the extent that you get more stuff done, [43:23] you'll get more promotions more opportunities [43:26] I mean, nobody's going to give you. [43:28] A job to do if the last five jobs like that they gave you you couldn't get done. So the more you're able to do [43:36] which oftentimes of course requires power and influence. The more you're able to do, the more you'll be asked to do, but better yet, the more resources you'll be given [43:45] to help you get things done. [43:47] And I think there's interesting what you teach that just showing that you have power [43:51] Create smart power people see that you have this power and they start to follow your lead more right? That's a part of this. Yep I just saw over the weekend the uh [44:01] Movie. [44:02] The latest movie in the franchise is The Planet of the Apes. [44:05] It's, you know, when Jim Collins left Stanford, he gave me a book called Chimpanzee Politics. [44:10] which is, of course, not based on the plan of the apes, but it's based upon the study of chimpanzees. [44:14] We are the same. [44:16] People are attracted to power. You know that. [44:20] Yep. [44:21] By the way, that will account for a lot of what is going to happen in the presidential election. [44:26] Let's save that for the end because I think that's an interesting piece of your book of [44:30] The connection to Trump. So let's save that for a bit. [44:32] I think that'll be really interesting. [44:34] kind of along the same lines of the area we were just talking about. And another rule of power is to show up in a powerful fashion. So look powerful. Talk about what that looks like. So my colleague at Berkeley, Dana Carney,

[44:47] C-A-R-N-E-Y is writing a book called Tell, which is about the importance of body language and how to master body language. [44:54] There is some evidence that suggests we respond mostly to how people look, secondarily to how they sound, and by far the least important to the content of what they say. You can see this by turning on your TV and turning off the sound. [45:07] Watch the presidential debates with the sound off. They'll be much better. I have another colleague in marketing by the name of Baba Shiv. [45:15] who talks about [45:17] People's. [45:18] Freaky mind. [45:20] Or, you know... [45:21] The idea that we are, in fact... [45:24] descended from primates that and that we are controlled in lots of ways by our emotions [45:30] And so we respond affectively. [45:33] to other people we respond we respond to how they look [45:37] You know, there's evidence in economics that suggests tall people earn more salaries, earn more money, controlling for a bunch of things. Attractive people, as long as you're not too attractive, you earn more money is an optimal level of attractiveness. Because people respond. [45:53] subconsciously. [45:55] to how people look, how they sound, [45:57] Um, [45:59] how they show up, how they present themselves, [46:01] In my class... [46:03] I take the example of Tony Hayward of BP, the Macondo oil spill, and Lloyd Blankfein, who was accused of shorting the securities that he was selling, which, by the way, Goldman did. [46:14] And before I let them hear Tony or Lloyd,

[46:19] We show about 60 seconds and Lloyd's case, 34 seconds. [46:23] with no sound. [46:25] And even if you did not know who these people were, [46:29] And I ask you to make a bet who's going to keep the job and who's going to lose it. You would know just from their physical appearance. [46:37] I love that. [46:38] And by the way, what Dana Carney will tell you and what Common Sense will tell you is that these are skills that can be mastered. [46:46] Robert De Niro was not born Robert De Niro, in the sense of acting skills are learned. How you show up, how you command the room. [46:56] There's a guy named Regis McKenna, who is older than God. [47:00] who's famous for running a very, very, very fancy public relations firm in the Silicon Valley. [47:06] And his biggest contribution to life, as well as, by the way, to his personal wealth, is that he makes Steve Jobs Steve Jobs. [47:14] when steve jobs began steve jobs couldn't convince you to buy [47:20] water if you were dying of thirst. He could not give a presentation to save his life. And Regis McKenna and his team [47:28] took Steve Jobs under their wing and created Steve Jobs, a man who could sell anything to anybody. [47:37] These are skills. This is not about personality. This is not about, you know, undergoing some kind of cosmetic surgery or whatever. This is these are skills. Everything we've talked about. Networking.

[47:49] showing up. [47:52] All these things, these are skills that can be learned. [47:55] I have a list of some of the stuff you actually recommend for... [47:58] looking and appearing powerful. So I'll read a few and I'm curious what else comes to mind. [48:02] So do not read from notes. [48:05] Make eye contact. [48:06] Keep it brief. [48:08] You say that anger can be a signal of power because it's outside the norm. It's kind of breaking the rules. [48:13] Don't apologize. It's kind of the opposite. [48:15] more gestures, which is interesting, open body posture, [48:19] Louder voice? Okay, I'm gonna speak louder now. I like this. Okay. What else comes to mind as ways to appear powerful? Invading people's personal space? [48:28] So gentle touching, standing close to someone. We're not talking about sexual touching. We're talking about touch on the arm or the shoulder. [48:36] you know shaking people's hands [48:38] That's a way of, I think, [48:40] being more powerful. But you covered the main ones. I mean, eye contact, [48:45] One of the problems with Tony Hayward and BP is that he's been given a statement to read. You cannot read something in front of you and make eye contact at the same time. [48:55] So he looks like he's [48:58] Scripted, he looks like he's insincere. [49:02] Jack Villani, who I had the privilege of knowing, who for 38 years, [49:09] was the head of the Motion Picture Association of America, and typically rated one of the number one or number two most effective lobbyists in Washington, D.C. [49:17] said to my class when he came to my class, which he did,

[49:21] I never appeared before Congress with notes. [49:26] I wanted them to believe, which was by the way true, [49:29] that I was in [49:31] complete control and complete mastery. [49:33] of the material. [49:34] and that I did not need. [49:36] notes. [49:37] or a bunch of assistants around me to help me, that I, as the head of the MPAA, understood the motion picture industry. And then he would give you a little aside about how it was the one industry that consistently had a budget surplus in trade. He would talk about how many jobs it created, and he had all this stuff at his fingertips. But basically, his command of the material. [49:59] made him more powerful. [50:01] It's interesting. Jack Valenny. [50:03] was, [50:04] Five foot two inches tall. [50:06] and he came. [50:09] Talk to my class. [50:11] And the next class... [50:13] I said to people, [50:15] What are your reactions? What are your thoughts? [50:17] and a woman raised her hand and said [50:20] He feels... [50:22] taller than he is. [50:24] And I thought... [50:25] That was an assessment that was both true [50:30] and insightful. [50:32] When the 5'2 Jack Fellini appeared, [50:36] because of his [50:38] presence because of his body language because of his texas drawl because of his how he moved on the stage he felt bigger [50:49] You would not say he did not feel five foot two.

[50:54] Let me read a couple more because this is a good example of stuff he did. [50:57] Other ways to appear more powerful is more speaking time, [51:01] longer gazing time, [51:03] more disinhibited laughs? Is that just you laughing and feeling like you're just… Well, the way… Humor. Humor. The famous author Salman Rushdie, [51:12] said, [51:13] And I quote Salman Rushdie. It's a fabulous quote. If you can get people to laugh, you can tell them anything. [51:19] Yeah, stand-up comedy is a great example that [51:22] So, again, I think here people might be hearing this and they're like, I don't want to be this person. I don't want to be talking all the time. [51:29] I don't want to be pretending like open posture. [51:32] Is the advice here just, you don't need to do all these things, just know this makes people more powerful. Don't necessarily judge people. Do some of these things maybe because it'll add to your power. How do you think about just people that are turned off by this sort of thing? That's a wonderful question. [51:46] So I say to my class on the very first day of class, [51:49] Now we will go through four stages. [51:51] We will go through the stage of denial. [51:54] Doesn't work in my culture, doesn't work in my organization, doesn't work for me, doesn't work in my religion, whatever. Then we'll go through anger. When they get angry at me, how can you teach us this stuff? [52:04] Then they'll go through sadness. I actually believe this and I'm depressed. And if we're successful, they will go through acceptance. [52:11] And the process I have, I'm getting, you know, I am not [52:16] I do not have the most popular class in Stanford Business School because I am good looking, [52:22] because i'm the smartest person at stanford or anything else i am strategic about thinking about if i if i have someone who's going to come into this class i have to get them

[52:33] from denial, [52:35] to acceptance in 10 weeks. [52:37] And how are we going to do that? [52:39] And the easiest way to do that, if I said, Lenny, [52:43] I want you to become. [52:45] a better tennis player. [52:47] or a better rollerblader or a better ice skater whatever a better piano player in 10 weeks what would we do [52:56] We have practice and coaching. [52:58] And that's what I do in the class. [53:01] Practice and coaching. [53:02] I have executive coaches who work with the class, and I give them assignments that ask them to practice what they're learning. [53:10] And therefore, by the end of the class, most people have made this transition. [53:14] Because it is true, you know, if you've never... [53:18] I had dinner the other night, this Israeli woman who's like, I've done amazing stuff. Amazing. [53:24] It's just fabulous. [53:26] And she said, she said, I would have never done this before taking your class. [53:31] And the way you get them to do this is I don't say, [53:34] Lenny, you're going to swim the English Channel tomorrow. If I want you to swim the English Channel, we're going to start... [53:42] by swimming in pools and make [53:45] every day a little bit more challenging. [53:49] That's what we do. I don't start by saying you're going to network like Keith Ferrazzi or John Levy or you're not going to be as bold as Jason Calacanis, who, trust me, is extraordinarily bold. You're not going to necessarily do what I did. [54:03] You're going to begin

[54:04] where you can begin and push yourself out of your comfort zone. [54:08] because [54:10] And again, this is common sense. It's also a ton of research behind it. [54:14] If you always stay in your comfort zone. [54:17] You will never do anything different or better than what you're currently doing. [54:23] This is true. If I said to you, I want you to, at the end of 10 weeks, lift 100 pounds. [54:29] I can't do that by on the last day saying lift 100 pounds. We have to work up to it. [54:34] And that is it's the same principle here. So don't do something that looks so off the wall or so out of character for you that you can't conceive doing it. Push yourself a little. [54:46] Push yourself a little. [54:49] There's an interesting connection here to what some say is kind of the opposite of your class at Stanford, which is touchy-feely. We had Carol Robin on the podcast. [54:56] And she has a framework, the 15%. [54:58] rule where you push yourself 15% beyond your comfort zone, where it's just a little bit, but it's not too far. [55:04] And it feels like you try to do a similar thing. [55:07] Yeah, absolutely. So you begin by doing what you don't think you can do. [55:12] Let's spend a little more time here around the homework assignments and this kind of knowing doing gap that you talk about. [55:17] So you shared a couple homework assignments you give already. Find 10 people. Think of 10 people you want to meet that will help you with your career and then try to meet them. [55:24] Then there's this, I guess my friend started a podcast. I don't know which homework assignment it was. What other homework assignments do you give? So we begin, there's a literature on goal setting. [55:33] that says if you set goals, you're more likely to achieve them. This is again not some huge insight, but there's an enormous scientific literature about this. And so I begin the very first homework assignment.

[55:45] which is, by the way, on the very first day of class, [55:48] Why are you here? [55:50] Why are you here? It is now the end of this class. [55:54] What would success look like to you? [55:56] What would you like to accomplish in our 10 weeks together? [56:02] Second assignment. [56:04] I give them a reading from the Power Book, which is the book before Seven Rules, which talks about the seven attributes of power. [56:11] Go out and get people to rate you on these or rate yourself. [56:15] You set for yourself a development plan. [56:18] energy, focus, [56:22] being willing to tolerate conflict, all these qualities. [56:26] What are you strong on? What are you weak on? [56:29] What do you want to build during our time together? [56:32] And how are you going to do it? [56:35] So we begin. [56:37] With call sign. [56:40] Thank you. [56:41] One of these assignments I give them [56:44] which is the class that Jason comes through. [56:47] What resources do you create? [56:49] You're at Stanford Business School. [56:52] Elite! Fancy! Stanford! [56:56] What can you do in your 10 weeks here? I have people who created awards. [57:02] A woman who created a war. [57:05] Kingwitsch. [57:06] to Carly Kloss, the model. [57:09] got in trouble with the school. It turns out it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. [57:13] So, you know, what what can you do to create resources that will give you some leverage?

[57:20] That would be a third assignment. [57:22] The networking is a fourth assignment. [57:24] the acting with power, I show them the videos, and I tell them in advance of the class, and I tell them they need to become Tony Hayward. [57:33] They need to do a better job, which is, by the way, a little bar, representing BP. [57:38] And then, you know, give me a 60 to 90 second video. [57:42] and then share it with colleagues and get feedback on it. [57:45] and then we're going to call on people in the class. [57:49] In other words, for every [57:51] idea i try to think of something and this is by the way this is all front loading and by the end of the class we're not doing this so much [58:00] But I try to give them [58:02] an exercise that causes them [58:04] to actually... [58:06] Take that idea and implement it. [58:09] Find people. [58:11] Oh, for Brandon. [58:13] Write a personal brain statement. [58:15] Get some feedback on it. [58:17] Been riding again. [58:18] How do you want to be known? [58:21] Which is, by the way, useful to you because you're a second year MBA. You're going to go in the damn job market. What do you want people to think about? How do you want people to respond? How do you want to be known? [58:32] So I basically take for every topic [58:34] and have them do it. [58:37] And then the coach, their coach, [58:40] who is responsible for 23 of these people, give them feedback on this. [58:46] I can see how this makes a big impact on someone's life. [58:49] Yeah. And so at the end, I had a student a couple of years ago who said to me, it is not that.

[58:55] I got more feedback. [58:57] and more useful feedback from your class than I did in any other class. [59:01] I got more useful feedback in your class than I did on every other class I took. [59:06] combined. [59:09] I can see why. [59:10] Amen. [59:11] Let's talk about the last power. So we've talked through six already. We have only one more to go, which is... [59:15] maybe the one that probably upsets people most, which is that once you have power, [59:19] People will forget what you did to get there. [59:22] Talk about what that looks like in... [59:24] Is that a power or is it more just like this is what you should know about? And I put in rule seven for the following reasons. [59:32] In spite of everything you and I have been talking about, [59:37] Many people [59:40] in a stage of i don't know denial or something say i'm worried that if i do this [59:48] At the end, you know, people believe that the world is homeostatic. It is not. You know, that it's going to adjust, but whatever. You know, at the end, you know, at the end, I will be brought, well, [59:58] they have the myth of icarus in their head you know you fly too close to the sun your winds are gonna melt [1:00:04] You're going to be brought down. [1:00:06] And so I tried to convince them [1:00:08] partly through a lecture and partly through rule seven [1:00:13] and some of the principles that I talk about are Rule 7, that in fact, [1:00:18] Life is not homeostatic at all. [1:00:21] That life is actually self-fulfill. If I believe you're powerful, you will become more powerful. If I believe you have no power, you will wind up with almost no power. And that therefore,

[1:00:32] It is all forgotten and forgiven. [1:00:34] And I begin, I believe I begin, but if not, I could begin, [1:00:40] WITH THE STORY. [1:00:42] of the South Carolina Senator who says nasty things about Trump. [1:00:46] and then Lindsey Graham and becomes Trump's biggest acolyte. And the New York Times, of course, is fascinated by this. How can you call, how can you say all these horrible things about Trump and now be his, you know, basically... [1:01:00] Have your lips affixed to some part of his anatomy. [1:01:04] And Lindsay's answer, [1:01:06] is i want to be relevant [1:01:09] He's the president of the United States. This goes back to the judgment. I like on my mind this, that, and the other thing. He's the president. If I want to get legislation passed, he, by the way, has taken over the Republican Party. If I want to get stuff done, I need to have him on my side. [1:01:27] And like many [1:01:29] Narcissists and egomaniacs. [1:01:31] It is not a good way to get them on your side by saying nasty things about them. [1:01:36] So, [1:01:38] This is the pragmatics. [1:01:42] People forget that Bill Gates stole the code on which Microsoft has built. [1:01:47] People forget. [1:01:51] that Jeffrey Epstein, after being convicted, [1:01:55] of sex offenses. [1:01:57] But still, [1:01:59] having dinners with members of the royal family and members of the New York media elite.

[1:02:05] People forget that Martha Stewart [1:02:08] who served time in jail [1:02:10] has a brand that's never been more valuable. [1:02:13] People forget. [1:02:17] All this stuff. [1:02:19] You know, I still remember. [1:02:21] sitting in the office of someone whose name I won't use. [1:02:25] But I'll use it now that if somebody wanted to search it out, you could. [1:02:29] So I am sitting in this guy's office and he's got, he's by the way, a Jewish man. He's got pictures of him with the Pope. [1:02:35] He's got pictures of him with Ronald Reagan. He's got pictures with him with all these people. [1:02:43] Thank you. [1:02:44] Thank you. [1:02:45] What is the secret? [1:02:47] He, by the way, took a company into bankruptcy. People lost literally billions of dollars. He was fine. He lost money, but he walked away with about $700 million. It turns out $700 million makes you a big deal. [1:03:02] lives in the biggest house in Los Angeles, or one of the biggest houses in Los Angeles. I can't keep up with the construction of the big houses. [1:03:09] People want to be close to money, power and success. [1:03:13] and they will overlook your flaws. [1:03:16] To be close to you. [1:03:18] Yeah, and again, you talk about this in the book. This doesn't [1:03:21] You're not describing how the world should work. This is just how it is. [1:03:25] And this is how you can be successful in the world that we live in. And by the way, this is how the world not only is, but how it was and how it will be.

[1:03:36] Because these [1:03:39] Ideas are not something that I sat down one day and made up or something. These ideas, everything that I talk about, including this last one, has social science and logic behind it. [1:03:52] So you can explain not only what he is, but why it is. [1:03:57] Mm. [1:03:58] So let's talk about Trump for a bit. At the beginning of your book, you say that basically you were going to write a book about why Trump is so successful and what he's done so well. [1:04:06] And your realization is no one's going to pay attention if, like, here's how to be like Trump. [1:04:11] And essentially, if you think about all these rules, it's clear he is very good at all of these things. That's correct. [1:04:18] By the way, not because he read the book, but because he does it through trial and error or something. [1:04:22] So when people hear that, they're like, I don't want to be Trump. I don't like how Trump is. I don't want to be... [1:04:28] seen that way. Do you have any thoughts on just how to make people feel comfortable [1:04:32] following some of these powers and building power, knowing that, oh, wow, maybe he's the epitome of some of this stuff. [1:04:37] I will tell you a story. [1:04:40] In 1993, [1:04:42] A woman [1:04:43] named Laura Esserman, [1:04:45] who's a doctor, took my class. [1:04:49] She claims, [1:04:51] publicly that this is the only class [1:04:54] at Stanford, for which he did all the reading. [1:04:57] By the way, while she was getting her MBA at Stanford, [1:05:00] She was having her first child and practicing medicine full time. [1:05:05] Thank you. [1:05:06] Bye.

[1:05:08] I love Esserben. [1:05:10] said to me one day, [1:05:13] You have a case, you have cases on all these people doing evil things. Why don't you ever write a case about somebody doing good things? [1:05:21] And of course, I wrote a case about her. [1:05:25] So she comes to the class. [1:05:27] The case was published in probably 2003, 2004. [1:05:31] She comes to the class and the students. [1:05:35] are [1:05:37] What is the right word? Heart on her? [1:05:39] That would be a modest thing. [1:05:42] The students eviscerate her. [1:05:44] Because she is... [1:05:46] incredibly smart, incredibly well-intentioned, but she [1:05:51] will not network. She says, I don't have time for schmoozing. She will not do almost any of the stuff that we talk about today. [1:06:00] So she and her husband, [1:06:01] Michael Endicott, two of my closest friends in the world. [1:06:05] and i go out to lunch afterwards and smoke is coming out of her ears and she is pissed off and this is a very accomplished woman and a very smart woman [1:06:20] and [1:06:21] She's pissed. [1:06:24] I said to Allah, [1:06:26] You have boundless energy and boundless intelligence. [1:06:29] You're a force of nature. [1:06:32] Let me discuss something. [1:06:34] from the subject of physics.

[1:06:38] You are creating friction. With enough force, you can overcome the friction. [1:06:43] If you reduce the friction, just think how much more you can accomplish. [1:06:49] And she looked at me. [1:06:52] and changed. [1:06:54] And I will tell you, [1:06:56] And I've said this publicly because I get to introduce her for all the awards she's won, and she's now won a ton of them. [1:07:02] including Time Magazine 2016 list of 100 most influential people in the world. [1:07:08] And I say to people, and I say it with pride, [1:07:12] that of all the things I've done in my life, [1:07:15] The thing I'm most proud of and most proudest of is creating our astronauts. [1:07:19] That is an awesome story and a really good way of thinking about this from a different angle. Yeah. No, I mean, and she... [1:07:27] Basically, I said to Laura, I said, "You want to make profound changes in the drug development process." [1:07:34] You want to make profound changes in whether or not we learn from the treatments that are being given to people. You want to make profound changes in the connection between research and teaching. [1:07:46] you know research and practice you want to you want to do all these things [1:07:52] if you if you're going to accomplish any of these things you need [1:07:55] to cross the bridge. [1:07:57] And she hasn't crossed the bridge completely, she and I joke about it. But she crossed the bridge a lot. [1:08:03] and she has accomplished incredible things. She's won every cancer award [1:08:08] that can be given. And by the way, she's won all these awards for the American Cancer Society who she fought with.

[1:08:15] She's won these awards from the Susan Cohen Foundation, who she fought with. [1:08:20] This is an incredible example of the opening quote to your book that I have here. "If you want power to be used for good, more good people need to have power." That's exactly right. [1:08:30] And I like that it's like a quote attributed to me. Yeah, well, I don't remember saying it, but somebody said I said it, so I'll take credit for it. [1:08:39] I said to Laura, you want to change medicine? [1:08:42] Medicine is not going to change. [1:08:44] without [1:08:45] the application of power and influence. If change was going to happen, it would have happened already. I mean, you have to take on entrenched interests. [1:08:53] She has a whole thing which we need not go into because it's pretty technical on screening. [1:08:57] You know, she said everybody's getting a mammogram every year and beyond a certain age, which is stupid for a variety of reasons. You can read. She was on the CBS News Hour about this. Yeah, this is what got her in trouble with the radiologist. The radiologist, of course, are selling screening. [1:09:13] She said there's some people who need to be screened every month and there's some people who need to be screened never because of their genetics. [1:09:19] So, you know, she wants custom tailored screening or precision screening. [1:09:23] Anyway, you could she's she's five to everybody. [1:09:29] Richard Blum, [1:09:30] Dianne Feinstein's husband, both Dianne and Richard Blum are now deceased, was at a thing where she launched the Athena Project. [1:09:39] The Athena Project, she is now [1:09:41] with her collaborators collecting data on the diagnosis and treatment and outcome for 150,000 patients in the University of California Health Care System.

[1:09:53] So I'm supposed to give some opening talk to be provided entertainment. And Dick Blum is there. Dick Blum, of course, is wealthy. He's Dianne Feinstein's husband. [1:10:03] I said to him, "Dick, how did Laura get you here?" and I still remember, I think this is a quote in one of the books I wrote. He said to me, he said, "Look, [1:10:10] He said, "I've learned. [1:10:11] that at the end of the day, when Laura asks you to do something, you may say no, but at the end of the day, you're going to do it anyway. Save yourself the aggravation. [1:10:20] Oh man, I feel like you're just endlessly full of good stories that we could just keep going on and on. [1:10:26] Let me try to summarize the rules of power real quick and see if anything else emerges and then have just a couple more questions. [1:10:32] So the seven rules of power. Get out of your own way. [1:10:36] Break the rules. [1:10:37] show up in a powerful fashion, [1:10:39] Create a powerful brand, network relentlessly, use your power, [1:10:43] And understand that once you've acquired power, [1:10:45] What you did to get there will be forgiven, forgotten, or both. [1:10:49] Let me ask you a question, maybe half in jest. [1:10:52] You teach people how to acquire power, [1:10:54] Why aren't you the most powerful man in the world? Ah, that's a very good question to which I have a very good answer. [1:11:02] I have a colleague who is unfortunately now deceased by the name of James G. March, who is a very, very distinguished scholar. [1:11:09] And James Marge said to me many, many years ago something which is completely true. [1:11:14] You can have power. [1:11:15] Or you can have autonomy, but you cannot have both. [1:11:19] And I have chosen... [1:11:20] to live a life of freedom, atana.

[1:11:24] I mean, I could tell you stories that would bring tears to your eyes. I'll tell you one. [1:11:28] We had a dean of the business school whose wife was dying of cancer. [1:11:31] and she was projected to die in the fall. So the business school goes to him and says, [1:11:36] We'll give you the follow-up. [1:11:39] to be with your wife. [1:11:41] She lives until June. [1:11:42] It's now winter. [1:11:45] You have responsibilities as the dean of the business school. You have to meet with alumni. You have to go around and raise money. [1:11:51] You have to show up at events. [1:11:54] University events. [1:11:57] I don't necessarily think that is how he wanted to spend the winter and spring quarters. [1:12:04] But that's what you have to do. [1:12:06] When I wanted Jack Valenny to come to my class, [1:12:09] I did not call Jack Flanning. [1:12:11] I called Judy Dickey. [1:12:13] Judy Dickey was his assistant. [1:12:15] Do you need to control the schedule? [1:12:18] I meet Jack on such and such a day. [1:12:20] He can't make it on that day. Fine. I can adjust the schedule. Can he make it on this day? [1:12:25] But I wanted my friend Gary Lovin, who ran Harrah's and Caesar's. [1:12:29] and then was the number two executive at aetna i want him to come to my class [1:12:35] I call Reggie Kirk. I didn't call Gary Lola. [1:12:38] And that's all you need to know. [1:12:40] I do not have an assistant who controls my schedule. [1:12:44] I control my schedule. [1:12:46] You will not find my Outlook calendar on any website or on any computer. [1:12:52] I want autonomy.

[1:12:55] If I said to you, Lenny, I will give you $1 billion, or for that matter, $10 billion. If you can buy... Yes. Wait. [1:13:03] If you can have... [1:13:05] last week again. [1:13:08] You can't. [1:13:09] You can't. [1:13:10] Time. [1:13:12] goes in only one direction. [1:13:16] I want control of my time. [1:13:18] is much more important to me [1:13:22] Being a dean or an associate dean, a job that I was asked to do, I took one academic administrator job. I'm actually memorialized, believe it or not, in the Stanford University. [1:13:32] record as having led, and this is according to my expenses, the Nobel Prize winner who was dean at the time that I led the biggest [1:13:39] and most successful transformation in the history of higher education. [1:13:42] I did it. [1:13:44] I did it once. I didn't like it. [1:13:48] Life is too short. I want to do what I like. [1:13:51] That's a really profound point that I think people don't think about is there's always this drive to acquire power. [1:13:56] And your point is that there's a big downside, which is a lack of autonomy. Yeah, you think about [1:14:01] I was trying to get Satya Nadella on the podcast and I talked to his comps people and they're like, [1:14:06] Every hour for the next three months is booked already. [1:14:09] We know what he's doing. He's extremely booked. And you think about the president, obviously... [1:14:14] Elon, I totally get what you're saying. [1:14:17] It's true. I don't want to do that. And by the way, power also comes with enormous visibility. [1:14:24] Donald Trump has done

[1:14:26] For 40 years, but he's now being accused of doing it. [1:14:30] You know, the tax stuff, all this stuff. He's been a grifter all his life. But when you become president, people are going to look at things that in the past they would not have looked at. You become president of a university, you're going to have scrutiny. As the president of Harvard learned, the president of Stanford learned. When they both had to resign, in one case because of plagiarism, in another case because of research misconduct. [1:14:53] Nobody, power comes. You're going to be put under a microscope. [1:14:58] People are going to look at what car you drive. They're going to look at who you go out with. They're going to look at how you spend your time. They're going to look at how you associate with. You will have no privacy. [1:15:12] You'll have no [1:15:13] and very little control over your life, [1:15:16] Everybody will feel completely free to dissect you. [1:15:20] in public, in private. [1:15:22] Whatever. [1:15:23] And you will face... [1:15:25] The trust dilemma. [1:15:27] When you are rich and powerful, [1:15:29] The question will be, [1:15:31] Our people, [1:15:34] praising you, our people associating with you because of you? [1:15:38] because of the position you hold. [1:15:40] Hmm. [1:15:41] Yeah. [1:15:43] Do you spend any time just to follow this thread in your class convincing people, stop being so obsessed with power, stop being so obsessed with becoming the top of everything? Is that a part of the class? No. Or is it just… No. I teach them… They see we have a class on the price of power. I bring out Rudy Krue. Rudy Krue was the New York Schools Chancellor under Rudy Giuliani. By the way, he tells many interesting stories about Rudy Giuliani, who did not just become the joke that he is overnight. He's worked hard to become that.

[1:16:13] And one year, [1:16:16] one year because his daughter at that time was living. [1:16:19] in the Bih Yarya. [1:16:21] He, when I asked him about, you know, the effect of the positions he held, head of Miami-Dade County Schools, head of New York City Schools, had Hillary ever won, he would have been Secretary of Education. [1:16:32] Literally. [1:16:35] There's a lot in the room. [1:16:38] He said to the class, [1:16:40] Jeffrey asked me the question, why don't we let Lauren answer it? [1:16:44] By the time she was finished, there was not a dry eye in the room. [1:16:49] What is it like to be the child? [1:16:51] What is it like to be the significant other of these people? [1:16:55] And you know the answer to that because you can see it. [1:16:58] The suicides. [1:17:00] Divorce rates. [1:17:02] There is a price that not only you pay, [1:17:06] but a price that your family pays. [1:17:09] I think that's a really good balance to the entire conversation. [1:17:12] Maybe just as a last question, what if we give the audience a homework assignment to work on [1:17:18] these power [1:17:19] What's something that you'd recommend someone try to do? I know it's probably dependent on what they're good at, not good at. [1:17:25] What's something that they could do to start moving towards one of these roles? So what I would say... [1:17:30] And it comes from [1:17:32] It comes from something that you talked about in our conversation at several times. [1:17:37] which is, this is uncomfortable. [1:17:40] Okay, so if I want you to do something uncomfortable...

[1:17:43] I can say, Lenny, go do this uncomfortable thing on your own. [1:17:47] Or I can say, Lenny, [1:17:49] I want you to do this. [1:17:50] with help, with social support. And so the first thing I would say to someone is... [1:17:56] If you think this is uncomfortable or if you think you're not skilled at this, [1:18:00] Get coaching. [1:18:02] Get a coach. I send out regularly the list of the coaches who work with my online and on campus classes. Happy to do it. [1:18:09] and they're happy to have the business. [1:18:12] Get a coach. [1:18:13] Get a personal board of directors like they talk about in the Wall Street Journal. [1:18:18] In other words, get people who will [1:18:22] give you advice, [1:18:23] give you social support and hold you accountable. [1:18:26] That's the very first thing I would tell people to do. [1:18:29] It is hard to do anything on your own. [1:18:33] If I said to you, Lenny, I want you to start an extraordinarily successful podcast. I didn't want you to do it without any help. [1:18:41] you would not be where you are today. [1:18:44] So that simple principle, get. [1:18:47] Help. [1:18:48] It feels like a part of rule number one, get out of your own way. [1:18:50] Ask for help. [1:18:52] Jeffrey, I was nervous for this podcast because I thought this was going to be super uncomfortable stuff. It turns out all of this makes so much sense. [1:18:59] And there's a really nice way of framing all of these rules. [1:19:02] And there's so much reason to actually invest in these skills. [1:19:06] So I really appreciate you. [1:19:08] putting in the time being here, sharing all these stories and insights. [1:19:11] Is there anything else you want to share as a kind of a final note or something to leave listeners with before we...

[1:19:16] wrap up [1:19:17] We did it. We covered everything. I'm happy. I'm happy. You're a very good interviewer, which is why your podcast is so successful. And I appreciate I'm happy to spend the time with you. And I hope I hope whoever listens to this book. I hope, first of all, there'll be a lot of listeners, but I also hope that they will find it useful. [1:19:32] I know they will. [1:19:33] Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to find your book, I guess? [1:19:37] If they want to learn more and then how can listeners be useful to you? So you can find my book on [1:19:42] Anywhere where books are sold, don't look in a physical bookstore because nobody carries it, including Ashley Stanford bookstore. They run out of it if people kind of use it, but you can find it on Amazon. [1:19:53] seven rules of power you know so you can that's how you can find the book by the way at the end of the book [1:20:00] I talk about, I have a personal website, JeffreyPfeffer.com. If you go to that website, you can find my course outline. [1:20:08] You can take the course on your own if you want or get somebody or take it in a group of people. You can find research. You can find articles. You can find columns. You can follow me on LinkedIn or I don't do Twitter anymore, but you can follow me on LinkedIn. So there are a lot of resources available for this. [1:20:27] Um, [1:20:30] company was once thinking of hiring me to give a talk in their organization [1:20:34] And the woman who wound up hiring me [1:20:37] said what I was discussing [1:20:40] are you, [1:20:41] and arguing that we should hire you for this presentation. [1:20:45] One of the people in the committee said, "Is he a good presenter?"

[1:20:49] And her answer... [1:20:50] I love this. I remember this. Her answer was, he's a fabulous educator. [1:20:56] My job is to educate. That is why I have done what I have done. [1:21:01] For now more than 50 years. Holy moly. [1:21:05] I didn't even realize that. For more than 50 years. [1:21:08] I have been in the business of education. [1:21:12] Not just about power, but about many other things as well. [1:21:15] But, you know, I'm in the education business, so I am happy to provide people with the resources, with the readings. The seven rules of power is well footnoted. It talks at the end about, you know, we could reach out for the coaches. You can go to the website and get the book. You know, I think. But I think. [1:21:33] consistent with what you and I have talked about. [1:21:36] If all you do is read, [1:21:37] You're not going to make very much progress. You have to do it. [1:21:41] You cannot learn tennis [1:21:42] by reading about tennis. [1:21:44] or by watching a movie about Serena or Venus Williams. You have to actually get out on the court and do it. [1:21:51] Which is a good plug for your other book, The Knowing Doing Gap, which actually helps you with the skill. Which you can also find all your finer retails. [1:21:58] retailers, [1:21:59] Jeffrey Pfeffer, thank you so much for being here. [1:22:03] Thank you for having me on your show. [1:22:05] Bye, everyone.