Becoming a super IC: Lessons from 12 years as a PM individual contributor | Tal Raviv (Riverside)

[00:00] I've had thousands of people tag my CEO on Twitter, calling on him to fire me. I was actually on vacation and I got bored and I was like, I haven't logged into Twitter. I haven't posted anything to Twitter for a while. What's going on on Twitter? And I see that the notifications number is like maxed out. It's like 999 plus or whatever. And I was like, wait, what? And I clicked the notifications tab and I see the first tweet is has at CEO handle fired at tall review. And I saw that that has like [00:30] and I just keep scrolling down and I start to piece together the story. [00:35] Today, my guest is Tal Raviv. This is a very special episode for me because Tal was one of the first and most active community members when I was just starting my newsletter Slack community. And as a PM I've admired from afar for a very long time, he's got some really unique and insightful takes on how to be a great product leader. And interestingly, he's decided to stay an IC product manager throughout his entire career up to this point, which is over 12 years as an ICPM. [01:02] stayed in IC for this long. He's been a PM at Patreon, at Wix, at AppsFlyer, and most recently joined Riverside as their first ever product manager. Riverside, by the way, is the platform that I use to record my podcast, so this was kind of a meta experience for both of us. He's also former founder, and outside of tech, he volunteers as a surf instructor for people with disabilities. In our conversation, we talk in depth about the IC career path, a bunch of tactical advice on how to

[01:32] how he uses ChatGPT to scale himself. Tal also explains why every tech company has just two departments that matter, the difference between book smart decisions and street smart decisions. We also spend the most time I've ever spent in Failure Corner, where Tal shares all of the times that he's failed in his career and how those experiences made him stronger. And it was really important for him to share these things because he wants people to understand that successful people [02:02] actually about to launch a course on Maven that's called Build Your PM Productivity System, which based on the conversation that we had, I am confident is going to be awesome. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to follow it and subscribe in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Tall Review. [02:27] Tal, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Thank you. It's great to be here. This is a long time in the making. [02:34] It has been a long time in the making, [02:37] You're interesting in so many ways. We're going to talk about a lot of different things. One of the things that makes you most unique and interesting [02:43] as a PM is that you've stayed an IC product manager for your entire career for 12 years. [02:50] I don't think I've ever met a PM that's been an IC for 12 years. I imagine you've had many opportunities to be promoted. I imagine this has been very intentional. [02:57] And I also know a lot of people actually think about this a lot. Should I move it to management? Can I stay in IC and be successful? So I want to spend some time here to start.

[03:05] And my first question is why? Why have you decided to stay in IC? Why have you not moved into management? [03:11] I don't really have a strategy for my career. [03:13] Like, my strategy is not to have a strategy. [03:15] for the longest time I've gone by [03:18] am I excited to wake up in the morning, and what's going to make me excited to wake up in the morning? Right? Not every single day, not all the time, but [03:23] for most of my days that I work. [03:26] What's going to make me hop out of bed? [03:28] and [03:30] Just kind of follow that. [03:31] and [03:32] Over time, as I got to, you know, [03:35] have different managers, [03:37] and different product leaders that I worked with. [03:40] I've never looked at their schedule before. [03:44] or their days or how they spend the highest, you know, high percentage of their time [03:48] Um... [03:49] and said, wow, that's what I want to be doing. [03:51] If I compare their days with mine and the stuff they're busy with and focused on, [03:57] And at the same time over the years, I've also noticed that the colleagues that I [04:01] identify with the most, like the ones where I just feel I most relate to them, [04:05] Many of them have that same pattern where they've gone to [04:08] you know, [04:09] team leader. [04:10] director and so on, and their next role, [04:13] request to be an IC, like they insist on being an IC. [04:16] and [04:18] Yeah, so that's from the tech world, that's what informs that. [04:24] the values i had growing up just watching my dad he's a researcher he's a professor [04:28] and he just has a blast every day. He refuses to retire, [04:33] He's just so enthusiastic about what he does.

[04:36] and [04:37] He's never aspired to be a chairman, provost, like that. He just loves what he does and he stayed there. [04:45] I just see the joy, like the fun. [05:15] newsletter post and turn it into a presentation for your team. Gamma has become one of the fastest growing AI web products in the world, adding 20 million new users just this past year and is setting its sights on becoming the modern alternative to PowerPoint. Whether you have design skills or not, Gamma can save you hours of time synthesizing your ideas and shaping your content. Visit gamma.app and use promo code Lenny to get a free month of Gamma Pro. That's G-A-M-M-A [05:45] dot app. [05:48] This episode is brought to you by WorkOS. If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning. That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app. [06:05] Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features. Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know, like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom. WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grain authorization service. Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.

[06:35] authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases. If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM, or user management, you should consider WorkOS. It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free. Check it out at workos.com to learn more. That's workos.com. [07:05] you [07:06] So much of that resonates with me. There was actually a period in my career where I was not an IC. No, I was an IC, and I was just like, [07:13] I don't want to be promoted any higher. Everyone I look at above me is just so stressed. [07:18] And I just don't need this. And things are great. Why would I want to change that? And I love that you stayed close to that. [07:24] I know a lot of things pull people towards management, compensation, [07:27] their status, [07:28] more impact, trying to, you know, like learning to be a manager. [07:32] Is there anything there that's just like... [07:34] pulled you and you've been just like, I'm going to give that up and I don't need that? Or is it, or life just as good as an IC for you? [07:40] I won't lie. Over the years, despite everything I said, if somebody who is my same amount of experience or same cohort gets promoted and becomes a team lead and makes that decision and rises up, [07:54] It does, you know, like... [07:56] twang in my stomach and gets on my ego, I have that moment where I'm like, "Wait a minute, what about me?" [08:02] Should I be doing that and it makes me question everything?

[08:05] and [08:06] Then I say to myself, okay, so... [08:09] Yeah. [08:09] Go for it. [08:10] you know, [08:11] "Tell your manager you changed your mind," or whatever it is, needs to happen. [08:15] Then I'm like, well, do I actually want-- I kind of get back to that same logic of what I don't-- [08:21] I don't actually want that. [08:22] So if I could push a button and [08:24] and switch with them, I wouldn't. So... [08:26] But definitely, definitely, you know, [08:28] Very human. [08:29] at the same time. [08:30] For someone that's trying to pursue this path, trying to avoid these sorts of things, and say just trying to be successful as an IC, [08:39] Looking back, is there anything that you've learned that [08:42] has helped you be successful. [08:43] Pursue the thing that makes you happy. [08:45] I think the big elephant in the room is compensation. [08:49] I think that's like... [08:51] Whenever I have this discussion with friends and colleagues, that's always the [08:56] Well, there's two things. There's compensation and there's [08:59] Like, can it [09:00] It'd be interesting. Like, don't you get sick of it. [09:03] Right. [09:04] So I think, you know, that classic book drive... [09:07] you know, um, [09:08] Motivation comes from autonomy, mastery, and purpose. And I think for me, the IC role... [09:13] It's definitely very autonomous. Being a product manager is one of the most autonomous roles and most amount of agency you can ask for. I think mastery, [09:21] I once heard Marty Kagan say, [09:24] in a workshop [09:25] Product manager role is just one of those roles where you can just keep doing it for a really long time because it just gets... [09:32] It just keeps changing and you can change industries without having background in it.

[09:36] The situation changes every time you do it in every different context. It's just so [09:41] so different and interesting and... [09:44] purpose is one that I [09:47] I took for granted in the past, and I learned how important it is. [09:51] I think if you feel that you're building something that you really want to see happen in the world and you really want to make sure it's done well, [09:57] You're like, don't trust anybody else to do it. You want to be the one to work on it and make sure that this gets done well in the world, because it matters to you. [10:04] than [10:06] I think you're... [10:07] you're in a really strong place [10:10] from that point of view. That really gets you motivated and you want to be hands on and it keeps you really focused. [10:15] I want to drill into something you said around compensation and just generally what you've done to be [10:20] to stay down this path because I know the compensation, that's a real thing. Is there anything you've seen or done that has helped you be more comfortable with that? [10:26] in terms of getting the comp you think you deserve, being an IC this long, being basically a super IC. [10:31] I think first of all, you have to believe your worth. Like you have to genuinely believe and understand that [10:36] that [10:38] an individual contributor in product management [10:40] is worth... [10:42] can have a really big scope, really big ownership, really big impact. [10:46] and [10:47] matters a lot. [10:48] The industry is [10:50] coming around to that, right? [10:52] We'll talk a little bit more about this, [10:54] the great flattening of the last few years and [10:57] I've seen talking to friends who are founders and the founders here at Riverside, [11:01] are really looking for people really experienced who are really hands-on like that's [11:05] First of all, we just need people who get stuff done.

[11:09] Just recognizing that in yourself, and believing that, and recognizing that in the industry, and remembering, there's a really good analogy here in engineering, right? [11:17] It really makes sense to all of us that you shouldn't have to rise into management in order to increase your compensation. [11:23] or just as valuable, right? [11:24] not as a manager, as like a domain expert, [11:27] and [11:28] That's step one, like really understand that you are [11:31] really, really, really valuable as an IC. [11:34] I think [11:36] Tactically speaking, [11:37] One thing that I've done a few times, different interview rounds, [11:40] is when it comes to compensation, [11:43] You've probably heard the line, [11:45] "Well, that's a really high number. [11:48] But we can't reach it, but don't worry. [11:50] We're growing a lot, the product door is gonna grow a lot, there's gonna be a lot of opportunities to rise into management, so there's gonna be a lot of opportunities to increase compensation over time. [11:59] And that's like a classic line you might hear from a [12:01] a recruiter or hiring manager, and in those moments, [12:05] It kind of puts you in a weird position where it's like, well, you don't think you're going to rise up. You can't debate that so well. [12:12] And what I say in those moments is, [12:14] you know, I'm glad you mentioned that. I actually have no intention of going into management [12:18] or rising up in those ranks. And I know that [12:22] you and I know that [12:23] The industry traditionally undervalues [12:26] the IC role, so it's really important for me to, you know, [12:29] have that number now. [12:31] And that works. [12:32] Wow. [12:33] Okay. [12:34] Very straightforward. [12:36] So maybe along those lines, just a final question on this track is just,

[12:40] for people that are trying to create a space for an IC [12:44] path at a company. [12:45] or as a company trying to do this, [12:48] Anything you suggest [12:50] they do, to make this a thing. [12:52] for people that actually want to stay ICs to set this up as a real career path. [12:57] have the titles. I think having good [13:01] titles that are clear [13:03] that you can move up into [13:05] first of all, just like creates it as an idea that there is progress, creating clear levels and rubric just like you would for [13:12] you know, within any level or within any title. [13:15] I think saying it out loud, recognizing it, [13:17] I think it's just... [13:20] Like at the end of the day, you know, [13:22] We all want respect. We all want to feel that we're growing. We want to feel that that's recognized. [13:28] So, [13:29] I think putting it in words... [13:31] It goes a really long way. [13:32] So in terms of titles, what are the titles you find? Is it principal product manager? Is there other... [13:37] titles you've found helpful and how many levels of IC do you find you need? [13:42] The ones I've seen on, like, [13:44] LinkedIn is there's product manager, senior product manager, principal product manager. I've seen a distinguished product manager at a classroom. Oh, yeah. Amazon, I think, has that too. Amazon too? [13:55] Um, [13:56] Yeah, I think those are the exception, not the rule. [14:00] But yeah, I think putting it into words really helps. Okay, so principle and distinguished. Amazing. Distinguished is the highest level you've seen. [14:08] I have an ICPM.

[14:10] - And you just created Super IC, I guess. - Super IC, and we're going to talk about that [14:14] And then in terms of rubric and career ladder, basically it's just the same way you... [14:19] However, [14:21] career ladder for managers, just have it go further for ICPMs. Yeah, I think product is usually the last department to really [14:28] Just because it's smaller, I think. Yeah. [14:31] Yeah. Okay. Amazing. Really helpful. [14:33] We've talked about this idea of super ICs and [14:36] As you mentioned, there's kind of this rise of [14:39] and shift of flattening of orgs, as you said. [14:41] of people hiring more senior product managers, there's a sense of that. [14:46] Companies are expecting more of [14:48] PMs just doing the work, not managing other PMs. [14:51] And I feel like you're such an interesting prototypical example of the PMs people want to hire. [14:56] And with AI, it's unlocking a whole new lever and opportunity for a lot of PMs where they, in theory, can actually achieve this thing that companies are looking for them to achieve. [15:05] which is just get more done. [15:06] So any just thoughts along that track of just like, [15:09] more is expected of ICPMs. There's more [15:12] need for ICPMs and AI making it easier. [15:14] What have you seen there? Where do you think things might be going? [15:17] We've seen the last couple of years, I think you had on here Nikhil Singhal talking about [15:23] when Facebook had those really big layoffs. [15:26] that they were biased towards keeping individual contributor product managers. [15:31] Zuckerberg talked about the flattening [15:35] And I've seen... [15:36] here at Riverside during that same time, [15:38] Founders talking about how they're just really looking for

[15:42] you know, [15:42] Can we just find some really, really senior experienced people who want to stay hands on? [15:47] Like that would be the dream, right? [15:49] I also have heard from friends in the market, the hiring market, that there's just a lot more experienced people. [15:55] competing for the same IC roles as a result of all that. [15:58] So, [16:00] I do think that the result of that is a lot of [16:04] I think the result of that is-- [16:06] Like being a 10x PM, for example, is becoming more and more table stakes, especially like you mentioned with. [16:12] AI. [16:12] That's just the tailwind for all of that. [16:14] And we don't have to go too far down this track, but have you actually experienced this yourself? Have you found really interesting ways to leverage AI and become more effective? [16:21] Just this week, I have an example on my team. I have one team that's [16:25] trying to introduce much more rigorous Scrum as it hires a lot more developers. Part of that is a lot more paperwork as a product manager. In some companies, it's a whole like role that they hire. [16:34] just to do that. [16:35] and [16:36] What we did is... [16:38] Basically, [16:40] took chat GPT, told it the format, [16:42] you know, the stories and epics and so on, and [16:45] tried something where I just dictated and spoke as if I was doing a kickoff and [16:50] and I just talked naturally and, you know, out, just put out all this, uh, [16:55] Really, really, really amazing detailed... [16:57] stories and so on and just have to edit it a little bit but [17:01] Um, [17:02] So that was like a... [17:04] you know, [17:05] aha moment for me, like, okay, that would have taken [17:07] either dividing the team into smaller pieces, or multiple product managers to be able to keep up

[17:12] and [17:13] Obviously, the next step is, like, we just take the actual kickoff, record that, transcribe that, [17:18] and feed that in. We're playing around with that as well. [17:21] You can imagine what [17:22] might have taken 10 years ago, five years ago, [17:26] a director... [17:27] organization, like a director level organization, and everybody reporting to that director. [17:31] to achieve something could probably be achieved with an IC now. [17:34] And I think this ties in because the product career path is going to be [17:39] even less about people management. [17:40] and just more and more about leadership. [17:42] Right? [17:44] like the core product manager skills. [17:47] This is a really interesting example of how you're using AI. I want to definitely spend more time here. [17:51] Help me understand exactly what you did. [17:54] a bunch of projects that you were kicking off with a bunch of different teams with a PM, [17:59] leading each one, or Scrum Master and leading each one. This is actually-- we tried this on one team, but it was a really big project. OK. Like a ton of stories, yeah. [18:06] Can you explain what the project is briefly? [18:09] Okay. It's a [18:11] I'll say it's like a [18:12] Pretty fundamental change to the [18:14] user experience, so it touches on everything. [18:17] Oh shit. Of Riverside. Okay. Oh man, here we go. [18:21] I'm excited. Okay, so you have this big [18:24] project you're kicking off to rethink the experience of Riverside. [18:28] And [18:29] Normally, you're saying you would have had to write all these one-pagers and specs of the [18:34] components of this project, like the different features and products. [18:37] So the high level why we're doing this, usability studies, the design, the vision, all that stuff, we did without AI. That was me, director of design, and our founder.

[18:48] But then it came time for, you know, the rubber meets the road. We did a kickoff on the engineers, you know, everybody's bought in, everybody's excited. And now we need to, like, really make sure that things are really, really well defined [19:00] and very, very clear and easy for testing afterwards and just like [19:04] make all that stuff, the high-level stuff, really [19:06] really specific [19:08] And so that means... [19:09] User Stories in JIRA, in this case, right, for this team, that's how they prefer to work, and the specific format, [19:15] that they've asked for, and [19:18] So it's like a story, and there's-- it's called a Gherkin. I'm learning this too. This is new to me. You know, given this, when that, then that. [19:27] It's really tedious. When it's small, it's actually really fun to write because it makes you think. But when you have [19:32] you know, [19:33] so many things I need to change. [19:35] It's overwhelming. [19:37] would either delay the team, that would be the bottleneck, or we'd just have to split it up. [19:41] and [19:42] What we did is we took that template. My team lead said, hey, this is the template I would love. [19:46] I gave it to Chad Dukitia, I said, you know, you're an expert PM, product owner, scrum master, whatever. This is the template, do you understand? It's like, yeah, let's go. [19:55] And then I said, "Well, actually, before we get going, I want to tell you--" I'm holding down the dictation button, use the whisper. [20:02] whisper AI to dictate. [20:04] I was like, [20:04] Let me just tell you a little bit more background. I just started talking to it like I would for a developer joining the team. And I just started to talk about why we're doing it and so on. I was like, so do you understand that? [20:14] He's like, "Yeah, cool, let's go." And then I said, "Okay, well, the first thing is, "we're gonna change this area, and it's gonna work like this, "and it's really important that this and this happens." And I just talked supernaturally to it, just like I would to a person.

[20:25] When I was done, I hit enter and it [20:27] created that [20:28] that user story in that format. All those cases, that would take me so long to write. [20:33] And [20:34] I would say the thing that [20:37] we still really needed a person for was [20:40] deciding how to break up this really, really big change into those stories. Like, what is the logical way to [20:47] Split it up. [20:48] engineering-wise, which my team lead did. [20:51] But [20:52] Once you have that, [20:53] like each one individually worked really, really well. So [20:57] I'm now experimenting with taking the transcript. I tried this, actually. Experimenting with taking the transcript of the actual kickoff that we did. [21:03] and that we recorded. [21:05] on Riverside and had it transcribed, and I copied it and put it into ChatGPT. It didn't work as well. [21:09] Um, [21:10] So I'm experimenting tweaking it to see, like, [21:13] How far can we push this? [21:15] This is awesome. I love that you're sharing this. [21:18] So you had basically [21:20] describe the project and all the different features and user stories and words. [21:25] Using Whisper, just-- and to use Whisper, is it an app? Or is it within ChatGPT? Where do you actually access this? [21:32] It's built into ChatGPT's desktop app and mobile apps, if you dictate that way. I also have a desktop app on my own that I use, because it's just such a great transcription model. But it's open source free, provided by OpenAI. [21:47] It's OpenAI's transformation. [21:50] Speech to text. [21:51] system. And then they're adding voice mode soon. It's coming out to people. So this is going to be built into ChatGPT soon. Amazing. Okay, so you talk about here's all the things we're going to be changing in the product.

[22:00] You give it a template. [22:02] Where do you give the template? Is it you... [22:04] put the transcript into ChatGPT with a prompt of "here is the template" [22:08] Or are you just even still describing that in-- [22:11] the recording. [22:12] No, the template is something that my team is like, this is how I'd love to have these written. He just says it as part of the transition. He sent it to me. He sent it to me on Slack. He's like, this is how I want it written. So the first thing I did, I opened a new thread in ChatGPT and I said, [22:25] You know, you're an expert. [22:27] you know, product manager, product owner, [22:28] This is a template we want to use for user stories. Do you understand? Hit enter. [22:33] So like, [22:34] It's like, cool, I get it. [22:35] And then I start to talk about [22:37] the [22:38] the changes we want to make. [22:39] Okay, this is amazing. [22:42] I could go down this track all day, but let's shift a little bit at... [22:45] Is there anything else you found to be really helpful in having leverage as an ICPM, kind of along these lines, whether it's A or not, just... [22:52] Being that super IC, essentially. Getting more done as an IC. [22:56] So the way I think about this is... [23:00] how you manage your own time, how you design your days, [23:03] your energy... [23:05] your focus, [23:06] and then your team. [23:08] and how you build that culture and those habits [23:11] to just give you a lot of leverage as an IC, so that still as one person, you can [23:16] you know, own a lot of scope, you can influence a lot, you can [23:20] manage a lot. So personally for my time, I really believe, and I think you've written about this as well, [23:26] in actively designing your days. And for me, [23:29] I really strictly split my days between deep work and what I call ping pong.

[23:34] or ping pong, you can imagine it's like when you're [23:37] You open Slack and it's just constant, you know, hitting the bell back and forth. It makes your brain feel like scrambled eggs. You're not going to be doing any deep thinking or reading or strategy. So for me, I'm a morning person and I [23:50] I block off my morning from meetings. A lot of people give that tip. [23:54] I go even further and I don't open Slack before noon. [23:57] I've been doing this for eight years. I don't open Slack at all. It gets really extreme to the point where like, [24:02] If I... [24:03] need to send a message. It usually fails. I usually open Slack. [24:07] I'm [24:08] before noon because I needed to send a message. And then I realized like all these messages don't need to be sent before noon. [24:15] Just because I thought it, [24:17] at 11 a.m. [24:18] Doesn't mean I need to send it at 11:00 AM. There's no urgency. [24:21] at that level. [24:22] So I actually keep a section of my to-do list, which is [24:25] When I opened Slack, [24:26] here are the messages I'm going to send. And I write them as if I'm about to hit enter in Slack, but they're in my to-do list. [24:31] and [24:32] Sometimes if I really, really, really rare moments, I'll need to check something, I'll ask the person next to me, like, "Hey, can you go into this channel and just show me that thing?" Because all their notifications don't trigger my brain into scrambled eggs again. So... That's an awesome tip. [24:47] And I know people will hear this and be like, there's no way I can do this. [24:51] is your insight as you can. [24:53] Yes. Usually when I share this, people are like, well, what if something urgent happens and people are looking for you? [25:00] This has happened-- [25:02] Like, [25:03] Twice a year. [25:04] You realize how not urgently needed the PM role ever is. And...

[25:11] First of all, over time, people really respect it. They learn that this is how you work, and they come to really respect this. [25:19] Um, [25:20] And [25:21] Second... [25:22] The key people that I work with have my phone number. [25:25] And I tell them, you know, [25:27] Feel free to call me at any time. [25:29] If I'm not on Slack, if you really need a response, just call me, WhatsApp me, whatever it takes, and [25:35] First of all, it's like a barrier, right? It's not like a quick message. [25:38] So it really is only for urgent stuff. [25:40] I have like... [25:42] Twice a year, I'll get a WhatsApp message from my manager, from my team lead, "Hey, something urgent is happening in Slack. We really need you." [25:50] And then I'll open Slack and I'll violate my rule. It's totally fine. [25:53] But that's, like, it's so rare that... [25:56] The system works for me. [25:57] Amazing. Okay, anything else along those lines? This is awesome. [26:01] Little tip. [26:01] I personally... [26:03] keep a weird habit. I realize it's a weird habit. I call it product scrapbooking. [26:08] where I have [26:10] this massive Notion database thing. [26:12] of every opportunity, big or small, that's ever come up. [26:16] and [26:17] when a piece of-- [26:19] evidence out in the world comes in. It could be a support ticket or a CSM sends a gong call, or there's a really great Slack thread with an amazing brainstorm happening and ideas. [26:30] piece of data, whatever it is, right? [26:32] And [26:33] file it. I actively take a screenshot or whatever as I file it. [26:36] And I start to cluster these in this really messy notion [26:39] And the reason I do this is that

[26:42] I've learned that we have these roadmaps and strategies that seem linear, but life and customers and insights are not. [26:51] when the time does come around to work on that thing, [26:54] and that opportunity comes up, [26:55] I can pull up that notion. [26:57] And I already have a bunch of really in the weeds, real world clues to start with. [27:04] and even persuade people that we should dig deeper into this. Or, for example, another advantage is that [27:10] If I'm on a conversation with a person from sales or CSM, [27:14] from Customer Success, [27:15] and they'll mention a request [27:18] I can open that up and I'm like, "Yeah, this is actually this client and that client and that client also mentioned that." [27:24] And [27:25] You know, you see like, [27:26] Thank you. [27:27] in their face that they feel heard. Like, you've been listening all this time. You've been writing this down. [27:31] It's a really [27:32] I think that's really important as well. [27:34] I love these tips. I love... [27:36] Product scrapbooking is a term that makes so much sense and it's just immediately clear what you're going to be doing. And I love how simple the approach there is. [27:42] Is there anything else along those lines, or is there... [27:45] something you want to share around this other bucket that I think you hinted at of [27:49] helping your team [27:50] set you up for success and get more done? [27:53] I believe in... [27:54] cultivating [27:56] very self-reliant teams. [27:58] Hmm. [27:59] And I think that's [28:00] really key to being [28:02] having a lot more leverage as an IC. [28:04] being able to manage multiple teams if needed, [28:07] on much bigger areas of the product. [28:10] I think the key of that is having this mindset

[28:13] that product isn't a role, it's a team. [28:16] and [28:17] I read a quote once. [28:19] Um, [28:20] by Abby Atawari. [28:22] and [28:23] She's worked on Netflix and Uber, and she's super experienced, and she says something like, "It's not about waiting for products. You know, products said this or that or waiting for product. [28:32] We're all product. [28:33] And, [28:35] I really try to-- [28:37] have that as the cornerstone of a culture of any team that I'm on. [28:42] that [28:43] I had a new teammate come up to me recently. He just joined, and he was on engineering. [28:49] and he came up to me excitedly. [28:51] And he's like, [28:52] I found a case that you didn't think about. [28:55] And I was like, "Okay, awesome, but hold on, let's talk about language." [28:59] Product is not a role, it's a team. [29:02] whatever it is, I don't even know what it is, but [29:05] Everything that we own, like it's both design was involved, [29:09] Engineering was super involved. [29:11] Yes, I was there, and [29:14] It's, let's call it, hey, I found a way to improve the product, or hey, I found something that we didn't think about. It's really, really important. So first of all, like that language, that culture, [29:24] that it's not like this hub and spoke model, and the PM is at the center and making all these decisions, and passing things through. [29:32] So first of all, that's like a fundamental mindset. [29:35] It's really important for each team to have to be more high leverage as I see. [29:39] The second thing is [29:41] Personally, [29:42] to seek to not be needed but be valuable.

[29:47] And the difference is, [29:50] Like... [29:51] If you think about your day as a product manager, [29:54] like look for situations where [29:57] Is there... [29:58] a game of telephone that's constantly passing through me. [30:02] Are there a lot of situations where [30:05] Clearly, you're the bottleneck, like your attention, your ability to get to something. [30:08] is the bottleneck and a lot of people are waiting on you. [30:12] Do you find like [30:13] A lot of communication is happening in direct messages with you instead of public channels for the team. [30:18] Are a lot of working meetings just like you and one other person on the team instead of maybe two or three? [30:23] Not too many either. [30:25] So, [30:25] All those... [30:27] are [30:28] like opportunities [30:30] where... [30:31] you can create [30:32] a different situation where a culture on the team where people are figuring things out between themselves and maybe involving you at the very end. [30:39] So one of the things that I-- [30:41] really put a lot of energy into [30:43] is [30:43] really encouraging people to get conversations out of direct messages and into channels. [30:48] This is a really important way to cultivate [30:52] people were just working together and figuring things out. [30:54] and between one another. [30:56] And, [30:57] Anytime somebody sends me a direct message, I say, this is a great question. [31:01] Can you please put it in this channel with the team? I'll answer there. [31:04] But it's really important for me [31:06] that any decisions we make are transparent, [31:09] that it's easy to find it later, [31:10] that there's a few other people who should probably chime in if they want to. [31:15] And this could be

[31:17] at the team level. [31:18] Um, [31:19] I worked at a company that had [31:22] really, really big customer success organization. They'd constantly like find you as a PM and just DM you these questions. And I'd say, great question. [31:29] put it in this really big channel, [31:31] That way, [31:31] And I give a reason so that way other people on the customer success team can search the channel and find the answer later. [31:37] It can help other people. [31:39] If you do this enough, it becomes a snowball effect because [31:43] other people on the team [31:44] we'll see that other people are posting in public channels [31:47] and feel more comfortable with it. [31:49] and that just becomes a chain reaction. [31:51] Such awesome advice. [31:53] There's like it's so kind of counterintuitive. Also, I think I'm to a lot of product managers where [31:59] You're basically saying [32:01] like remove yourself as a dependency [32:03] delegate more, empower everyone on your team, have engineers [32:07] come up with ideas, have them write things, like one-pager specs, things like that, like [32:11] become less valuable almost, which I think is not the natural [32:15] We come up to him. [32:17] Become obsolete. [32:18] And-- That's the dream, no? That's my dream. [32:21] I love that. But I think they're like, if I thought of, if I think about trying to do this, [32:27] I think you need like a real confidence as a PM and comfort with [32:32] Chaos. [32:33] A lot of times PMs [32:35] They want to be the hub because the more they can control the narrative, the more they can control what people see, [32:40] PCX pinging an engineer, like, oh my god, they're just going to start working on this thing, and we have this roadmap, we have priorities, what are they going to do? [32:46] How do you manage that?

[32:48] Yeah, there's a great phrase I heard a mentor once say, which is culture over process. [32:54] Process is important and some of these need process to scaffold until you build the culture, [33:00] I think it's like you've got to view the team as like this [33:05] asset you're building, right? This culture is an asset that you're building and you're investing in it and you're [33:10] cultivating it and [33:12] You want to build something that's stronger than-- that's a great example. A CX person or salesperson is just directly messaging an engineer or just asking for something. You want to build something that's resilient to that. [33:23] product that you're building as a PM, I think, is the team that builds the product. [33:28] and is resilient to all this things. It doesn't happen overnight. It's not going to happen in the first quarter that the team is formed, but it happens [33:34] you know, over time gradually with-- [33:36] little messages and little interactions and positive feedback and, you know, asking people to work a little bit differently and giving them a reason why and building trust and, [33:45] I think that [33:46] Success in my job is [33:49] to build a very self-reliant team that's very resilient to all those things that I would otherwise, you know, like you said, keep me up at night and really make me worried. [33:58] You shared an example of how you do that. I call these micro-interactions. So much of a PM is these micro-interactions with [34:04] Team members which are so much harder now in a remote world, [34:07] We can't just walk by and just like... [34:09] do a little [34:10] little chat. The chat you shared, I think, is an awesome example where the language [34:14] was a really powerful... [34:16] shift in how this person thought.

[34:19] Is there anything else along those lines you could share of how to create this sort of culture? [34:23] One thing... [34:25] that I try to do is [34:27] when somebody [34:29] take something that would be my job [34:32] and does that like a [34:33] whether it's on the design side, they lean in more, or on the engineering side, they lean in more, people bring ideas, or they say, "Hey, I took the liberty of doing this." It could be as small as something bureaucratic, or as big as an idea or suggestion. [34:46] I just shower them with positivity. I just show them... [34:49] just [34:50] how excited I am that they did that [34:53] I just want that to happen again and then to feel even more bold. [34:58] and [35:00] Just like when somebody takes something off your plate, when somebody, you know, [35:04] think does kind of the pm what you think is like that's pm thinking what are you doing right just really want them to feel that that is extremely welcome [35:11] And I imagine there's a bunch of coaching you do to help engineers, designers, researchers, data. People think the way you think almost. [35:17] to kind of become more PME? Is that a part of this too? [35:20] I don't know if I would call it coaching. It's [35:23] Um, [35:24] It's like a lot-- like I said, it's just a lot of little behaviors. [35:27] One thing I try to do along those lines is [35:30] when there's something that's on me to do, [35:33] for someone or the next logical step, [35:37] Um, [35:38] I try to do that live with them. So if, [35:42] Somebody asked me a question about, hey, what does the data show about this, if we went that direction? I'm like, I don't know, let's find out. [35:47] Instead of saying, hey, I'll get back to you, let's open Mixpanel.

[35:51] Let's play around with this. [35:52] And, [35:53] I don't tell them, "Hey, it would be great if you..." I just show them how easy it was. Like, "Hey, if I could figure this out, like, you know, this Fisher-Price data for PMs, like, you could totally figure this out." That's what I'm trying to imply by showing it. [36:05] or... [36:06] uh you know if it's a write a create a jira ticket just to make something happen quickly and document [36:11] I'm like, "Hey, let's just do this together on the call right now and make sure I get it right." And what you see is over time, [36:17] some people more than others, but they start to [36:20] just naturally want to do that themselves, ask you for that access, start to do those things. Hey, you know, [36:28] I did this and I wrote the Jira ticket for it. I did this and I did the data analysis. And that grows over time. [36:34] You actually have a course that you're launching or is out now or about to launch that teaches a lot of these things. Talk about that. Yeah. [36:42] This is a passion project I'm working on with Maven, the learning platform. It's a course called [36:49] builds your personal PM productivity system, [36:52] And it really goes super deep and super practical into these topics exactly, like how to design your time, how to manage yourself, [37:00] how to manage your emotions, how to cultivate self-reliant teams, how to give feedback and create a product org that puts less overhead on you as a PM. [37:11] The idea is to just take all these topics and just make this really, really, really hands-on. [37:16] Awesome. I feel like I wish I had this [37:19] And I feel like you're such a great person to teach this because as an IC person,

[37:23] This is... [37:24] This is how you succeed. This is the thing that makes it hard to stay as an IC. [37:29] And again, with the rise of AI almost [37:31] creating a space for super ICs, as we talked about, feels like this kind of stuff is going to be more and more important. [37:37] So I'll definitely link to that in the show notes. [37:40] I want to shift to a different topic. [37:41] Uh, [37:42] I think you've kind of shown people this already, but you have a lot of very unpopular, contrarian opinions about a lot of things. [37:49] you see things a little differently. [37:50] And there's a few other things that I've seen you talk about that I want to spend a little time on. [37:55] So I'm just going to go through a few of them and just share whatever you want to share on this. Sound good? Sure. Okay, cool. The first is you have this concept that every tech company basically has just two departments that matter. [38:07] So yeah, over time, working at a bunch of hypergrowth companies, [38:12] I've started to notice that there's... [38:15] some departments that [38:18] are the reason that company won the market. [38:21] and [38:23] also started to realize that [38:25] and this is sometimes true of the department that I'm in, Product, [38:28] that even if [38:31] you know, product did [38:33] 10x job. [38:34] It wouldn't be a 10x outcome [38:37] for the company over the decade. [38:39] But for example, it could be if marketing did a 10x job, [38:43] the company would have. [38:44] a 10x outcome over the decade. [38:46] And I started to observe this over the years and I noticed... [38:50] It's roughly usually like two things. [38:53] two companies, sorry, two departments.

[38:55] It's roughly like two departments that [38:58] this boils down to in each company. [39:00] So, [39:01] I'll just make this really concrete without naming names. The companies that I worked at [39:06] The two departments at one company was product design, [39:09] and support. If those two departments were 10x, [39:14] then the company would win. [39:16] Another company was data accuracy and customer success. [39:20] Another company was-- [39:22] the thing that made them win the market. [39:25] was trust/brand, [39:27] trusted brand. [39:28] and payments. [39:31] and [39:33] Another company that I worked at [39:35] Looking back, what made them win in the market was... [39:37] marketing. [39:39] and [39:39] engineering, like scalability. [39:43] So... [39:44] Product sometimes is on this list. [39:47] So one of the companies I worked at, like I mentioned, in a product design product, [39:51] If that department does 10x, [39:54] impact, then the company will succeed 10x in the market. [39:58] But it's... [39:59] In my career, it mostly hasn't been product. [40:01] Product has to do a good job. [40:03] But it's not the-- [40:05] you know, [40:06] not the biggest lever for that company, even though it's a tech product company. [40:10] and [40:12] I think this really crystallized for me when I finally worked in a company where product [40:17] is that department. You feel that. [40:19] Okay, so the $64,000 question, whatever billion dollar question is, how do you know which two departments matter most? First of all, look at what really drives the growth.

[40:29] Like, what's the growth model? [40:31] What are the levers? Ask those questions. [40:33] How does it work? [40:34] Ask officially and ask as part of your back channeling and reference checking. And the second thing is if you're really seriously [40:42] checking out a company, evaluating a company, [40:44] truly understand [40:46] that customer and what are they actually paying for in this industry? [40:51] What is the real... [40:53] product, what's the real value that they're getting? [40:55] Clearly they're paying for a product or a service, but beyond that, what are they actually paying for? Ask those questions. [41:00] and I think that'll [41:02] Make it clear. [41:04] I think maybe one... [41:06] trick here is just see what team drives... [41:09] Growth. [41:10] Oftentimes it's going to be sales. Oftentimes it's going to be product experiments they're running. It could be marketing. Exactly. And, um... [41:17] That department, if you're [41:19] Whatever role you have, if you're in that department for that company, [41:23] That's going to be your career defining work. That's why it's so worth it. [41:27] That's kind of you're going to attract like, you know, [41:29] The best colleagues or careers are going to [41:31] have a step function jump. It's a totally different experience. [41:36] And this is when people say a company is engineering-driven, product-driven, marketing-driven, sales-driven. This is exactly what they mean, which... [41:42] team matters most to the company because they are driving most growth [41:47] so if you're a salesperson on a sales driven company you will [41:50] B. [41:51] valued. [41:51] more highly than being a product person at a sales driven company. [41:55] Yeah, when I graduated from college, I had a friend give me advice. He was like,

[41:59] Don't be a finance guy at a tech company and don't be a tech guy at a finance company. [42:03] This was... [42:05] 2009, so like [42:06] Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. And I think this is where a lot of people struggle with their PM. [42:11] at a company that is very not product driven and they read all these books about being empowered and [42:16] having agency and autonomy and [42:18] And instead, they're just feature factories because... [42:22] Other teams are in the show and we don't need your opinions. We know how to grow this thing, just build this thing for us. Here's the thing, that's okay. That's what that company needs to succeed in the market. [42:34] You know, you think about the Olympics. This is an analogy that came to mind recently. It's like, [42:40] Let's say you can think like, [42:42] how a marathon runner looks? [42:44] and how a swimmer looks. [42:46] They're very different. [42:48] They look very different. You can spot them in the row of athletes. [42:52] And if you imagine... [42:54] you know, product being a lap muscle, [42:57] That's product department. You know, you can be a lap muscle for a marathon runner, you can be one for a swimmer. [43:03] and a marathon runner needs one and it needs to work, [43:06] Uh, but. [43:07] Right? [43:08] Where do you want to be that lap muscle, on the swim or on the marathon runner? [43:11] I love that mentality.

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[45:12] seeing something from somebody else's point of view. [45:15] This goes beyond empathy, ultimately what I mean. [45:18] Like, [45:19] giving the [45:21] customers' perception just as much weight as you would to logic. [45:25] So, [45:27] A really big example of this, and I won't name the company [45:31] I was at this company that [45:32] changed the structure of the pricing. [45:35] And, [45:36] The... [45:37] change was actually not meant to make more money. [45:40] It was meant to unblock a payments roadmap and enable all these feature requests that were stuck behind this fundamental change. [45:49] In preparing for this, the company did a lot of analyses and just made sure that [45:55] you know [45:56] This is actually really good for customers, [45:58] uh, [45:59] This would only... [46:02] Like, the numbers and the predictions and the models were like, this is a positive thing. [46:07] and [46:08] I know all the people that were involved [46:11] or the most empathetic, really did this because they really cared about this customer, [46:15] Genuinely, I've never seen people at the executive level, at the product level, at the data level. These are the people who really genuinely wanted the best. [46:23] for this customer. [46:25] And [46:26] They rolled out the change. [46:28] and [46:29] In reality, what [46:31] Well, bottom line, it was a big revolt on the internet. It was a big deal. And it was rolled back. [46:38] and bottom line why [46:41] There's such a gap

[46:43] between [46:44] you know, everything, actually, by the way, all the analyses proved out to be correct. [46:48] All the models, all the predictions, everything played out. [46:51] the numbers as predicted, the problem was the perception. [46:54] the narrative behind it, what it looked like [46:56] when you've logged into the product and you saw only the negative, but you didn't see all the positive because the positive was [47:02] what happened 30 days later and you saw the negative immediately. A lot of things like that. [47:07] and [47:09] I [47:10] I would have made exactly the same mistake. Not a criticism, I would have probably made more mistakes. But that's what opened my mind to-- [47:18] Oh my god, you have to really think. [47:20] more than just logical, more than just utilitarian. [47:23] Another example of this is [47:25] There's a company I work at where [47:28] all the [47:29] features that were on a higher plan, [47:32] were invisible to the lower plans just because everything was built really fast and it was time to [47:37] to make them visible so people could upgrade. So we got that ready. [47:41] And [47:42] And we did this, and we're about to release it. [47:44] And we realized, [47:45] You know, [47:47] Tomorrow morning. [47:49] a bunch of customers are going to log into the product [47:52] And [47:53] There's all these features that they've been asking us for, because they didn't know that we have them, because they were locked and only on the higher plan. [48:00] Suddenly, from their point of view, [48:02] The company built everything they'd asked for. [48:06] And [48:07] All of it. [48:08] requires paying more money. [48:10] How are they going to feel? [48:12] And so...

[48:14] We didn't roll it out that way. We rolled it out in smaller pieces and in different ways. [48:20] because we realized that's going to feel really shitty. [48:24] If you think about it-- [48:27] Practically speaking, or theoretically speaking, [48:29] We didn't... [48:31] upsell anything. We didn't [48:33] start to-- these are all things we already had built. Everything is above board. [48:36] That's the perception that was going to happen. [48:38] In that second example, is there anything [48:40] that triggered that [48:41] recognition or is it just [48:43] people sitting around being like, "Oh, what about this?" [48:46] Because the first example you had agreed [48:48] point where customers were telling you this isn't [48:51] necessarily what they want and you're like no no no you're gonna do great trust us it's gonna be really good for you [48:56] But there's feedback, at least in the second examples. There's something that's like-- [48:59] And what I'm asking about is like how [49:01] How can people develop this skill? Because I love this advice. I think that intuition came from [49:07] Um, [49:08] spending time in the customer community and support tickets and just noticing [49:14] smaller versions of that. [49:16] that people have feedback on. [49:18] and you start to see [49:21] what our customers at the time would like, what they would tend to, what their suspicions always were. [49:30] you know, trigger happy to blame the company for XYZ and [49:34] If you see enough [49:35] you know, raw data from customers, or if you get on a customer call and they mention nickel and diming and all these things, right? Like, you start to understand, like, this is the target

[49:44] This is how they think. This is what they're sensitive to. It's interesting because at Airbnb, there was a lot of that, a lot of hosts being really upset about changes. [49:53] like constantly. Everything that changed, they're [49:56] And usually the changes are to help the business in some way, help the guest in many ways. And it's always this balance of we're just going to, we got to do this. This is just... [50:05] the future. [50:06] Is there anything there, just real quick, of just learning when we got to do this anyway, even though they're going to be pissed, versus like, oh shit, let's roll this back. [50:13] Yes, for sure. This is just like what I'm talking about is to recognize it. What you do with it is a different thing. [50:21] But I joke when we do changes to [50:25] like redesigns or changes to the UX, and we're going to get inevitable, you know, complaints. I just tell my team, we're going to deploy this and we're all going to log out of social media for two weeks. [50:34] That's the strategy. [50:35] Thank you. [50:36] OK, that's extreme. We don't actually do that. [50:39] of course, but that's what we... [50:41] We wish we could do some times. [50:42] And the insight there is just social media will amplify one person's loud voice. [50:46] versus [50:47] like how many people actually are upset about this [50:50] How important are they to the business, right? It's like, don't pay attention to the loudest person. [50:55] We're also [50:56] Um, [50:57] I think the key there is the two weeks. [51:00] Because if people are still complaining after two weeks, okay, then there's something here. [51:03] But [51:04] In those two weeks, there's going to be a lot of [51:07] feedback that comes from a resistance to change that they're going to [51:09] adapt to and won't be able to remember what was before. But sometimes you make mistakes and people will...

[51:18] If there's a real mistake, you'll know about it. [51:20] for a long time. [51:21] Yeah, and obviously you'll pay attention to, like, support tickets and all that stuff. [51:25] It's just-- Yeah, obviously, yeah. Disclaimer, during those two weeks, we look at every support ticket, and we look at everything on social media, for sure. OK. [51:35] I have two more examples about the Street Smart Books that are really important. Oh, please, let's do it. Let's do it. [51:41] This has happened twice to me, where [51:45] I... [51:46] I worked on a team that... [51:48] made a very logical UX change. [51:51] And [51:52] quickly found out that we ruined the sales demo. [51:56] So, [51:57] for the users of the product, [52:00] the [52:01] the experience became a little bit smoother. [52:04] It was an optimization. It wasn't something critical. [52:06] But then [52:08] for [52:09] the sales demo, [52:10] it communicated the value less. It was harder for people to really understand [52:15] in one glance. [52:17] So a lot of times... [52:19] This comes from taking something that's very [52:21] like visual and making it very efficient and small. [52:24] So you might gain fewer clicks, but [52:27] It'll make it harder... [52:28] for [52:29] or the sales team to communicate. [52:32] for that "ha" moment to happen on a call, to the point where [52:35] We made this change and then salespeople [52:38] would send me Gong Link recordings. [52:41] you know, in the past and in the current demos and just show me the difference. And it would pain me to watch these. I was like, oh, we got to fix this. Like people aren't getting the value of how they even can experience it.

[52:50] Okay, I know that you have a couple more hot takes that I wanted to make sure we have time for. [52:54] One that I love, that I agree with, and it's kind of the thesis of this podcast almost. [52:59] which is that-- [53:00] There's no right way to get things done in a product team and a business. [53:03] in spite of what you may read online. [53:06] I'd love to hear your take here. [53:07] Yeah, I didn't always understand this. In fact, I moved continents. [53:13] because I had professional FOMO. [53:16] So I moved... [53:18] Um, [53:19] from Israel to San Francisco. [53:22] because I believed... [53:25] And actually, a lot of people had that feeling that [53:28] you know, whatever we're doing here, [53:31] In Silicon Valley, they know how to work. That's the big leagues. And I... [53:35] Got to work shoulder to shoulder. [53:37] with people who came from Apple, YouTube, [53:41] Salesforce, Facebook, Slack, Amazon, [53:45] Stripe, I got to work with the people who came from these companies I admired so much. [53:49] And, [53:50] I came up with the conclusion that [53:53] We're all just making it up as we go along in tech. [53:57] We're all just improvising, as we should. That's the beauty of it. [54:01] Every situation is different. Every market is different. [54:03] Every company is different. What it takes to win is different. [54:06] And [54:07] So, [54:09] Myself, I've had phases where I've been this zealot of, you know, everything has to be outcomes driven and [54:16] uh, [54:17] Then I've gone to like, let's just ship as much as possible, figure it out. And everything needs to be A/B tested. And quarterly planning has to work this way.

[54:25] should do Scrum, or don't do Scrum, and I just realized, like, [54:28] There is no... [54:30] It's not that simple. [54:31] It's about... [54:32] figuring out the problem at hand and optimizing for that and having an open mind. [54:36] I'm just... [54:37] understanding that we're all improvising. [54:39] That's really powerful. [54:40] I think people may hear this and be like, yeah, I think I get it. [54:44] I guess for people that are just... [54:45] You know, everyone's reading. [54:47] Reading my newsletter, reading all the newsletters, listening to podcasts, listening to how people work. [54:52] What's your advice? What should people think in your mind when they read about how another company runs? [54:59] My personal story, one of the things that happened when I... [55:03] landed in San Francisco, I really felt like an imposter. [55:07] I was like, OK, well, everybody else here really knows how to work, and I need to learn from them. [55:12] And [55:14] Six months later, [55:15] I found myself giving talks and writing blog posts about how to work. And blog posts that were being used in reforge courses and all that. [55:25] advising people and sharing. [55:28] And [55:29] That's when it hit me like that's the beauty of this industry. [55:32] is that that can happen because everything is changing so fast, like because [55:36] Like, how did I get there? [55:37] I was just... [55:38] on a team doing something [55:41] really difficult and interesting. [55:43] in a very unique way. [55:45] and [55:47] That's how you learn. That's the real way to learn. [55:50] My manager, Adam Fisherman, at the time, [55:53] told me [55:54] you know,

[55:55] something related to this, which is like the best networking [55:58] is just to do really good work at a successful company, and everything else will work out. So I think the same goes for learning [56:05] The best learning is to just do really good work, [56:08] at a really good company with really good people. [56:10] and solve problems that have never been solved before in this way, which will inevitably happen, right? That's what we're all doing. And everything else will work out. Like, you'll be the one. [56:19] Writing the blog posts, not just reading them. [56:22] Such important advice. [56:25] So kind of the takeaway here is just [56:27] if you want to become much better. [56:29] If you want to be the one sharing advice versus the one reading advice, [56:32] Easier said than done, but [56:34] The advice is... [56:35] work at a company doing interesting hard things. [56:39] driving impact. [56:40] being growing, being successful, and that's how you level up. [56:45] Yeah. [56:46] I love that. It's the best way. Yeah. And again, easier said than done. Not everyone can join an awesome, you know, high-flying tech startup. [56:52] um... [56:53] Interestingly, you did this in Israel, right? Away from the core of Silicon Valley. So you can find great places outside of Silicon Valley. [57:01] That's great. Okay. [57:03] So [57:04] I know that... [57:05] You wanted to spend a bunch of time in Failure Corner. [57:08] which I love. It's this recurring segment on this podcast where folks share times they failed in their career and things they've learned from those. [57:14] experiences, and you wanted me to carve out meaningful time here, which tells me that you've had a lot of these experiences, for better or worse. [57:21] So what I'm thinking is let's just go through a few of these stories that you think might be helpful to people to hear about times you've

[57:27] Things didn't go great. [57:29] and what you learned from those experiences. How does that sound? [57:31] Yeah. [57:32] Um... [57:33] Yeah, it's really important for me to share this. [57:37] During low points in my career, [57:41] Having someone share with me [57:44] a failure story [57:45] It just really helped me understand that that's part of it, and I'm not alone. [57:51] You know, you browse LinkedIn, you see these incredible profiles with these incredible pedigrees. [57:56] and [57:57] where you don't see-- it gives you this sense that everybody's just had a smooth sailing, and everything's going great. [58:04] And everybody has had, you know, [58:06] Some-- everybody's been here long enough. [58:09] had a ton of failure stories and a ton of low points and self-doubt. So, [58:14] It's really meaningful for me to just talk about this. [58:16] Let's do it. Let's get into it. Let's get real. [58:19] So... [58:21] I'll say this. I've wasted... [58:23] Twice. Twice I've wasted an entire [58:26] quarter. [58:27] of a growth team's time. [58:29] because of [58:30] my poor use of user research. Hmm. [58:34] First time, [58:37] I can look back and after 12 failed A/B tests, [58:41] And then 12 failed AB tests set us on the right path and got us to revisit our hypothesis. [58:46] if I had only spent more time with [58:49] the customer. And this was, [58:51] the kind of A/B testing that people say, "No, you can't do user research. You can't ask somebody what they're, you know, [58:57] how a button's going to affect their purchasing, but

[59:00] If I had spent... [59:01] time-published, [59:03] with the customer to just understand [59:05] who they are, what motivates them, [59:08] how they got there, why they're paying, [59:10] all that stuff, I would understand that [59:12] Um, [59:13] Not every checkout process [59:15] is the same psychology as Groupon. [59:18] or [59:19] Amazon or Booking.com. [59:22] The things that work on those sites work [59:25] Not just because... [59:27] you know, people are the same [59:28] everywhere. [59:29] They work because... [59:31] people are in the same mindset. [59:33] You know, for Groupon, for example, [59:35] Amazon is different. Booking.com is different. [59:38] and what you're working on. [59:39] why people are buying in the situation that I was in. [59:44] was so different. They... [59:46] I had so much motivation over such a long period of time. [59:49] you know, they [59:51] They had... [59:53] um [59:54] Constant reminders. [59:56] naturally in their lives that they were happy to get. [59:59] And [1:00:00] the things that didn't work were all the things that worked, you know, that Groupon and Booking and Amazon, all these e-commerce sites did. Those were not relevant. [1:00:07] and we tried all those things and they fell flat. The moment we realized that [1:00:12] and it clicked for us. [1:00:14] And all these A/B tests that should have printed money did nothing. [1:00:17] Once we realize that-- [1:00:19] Then it really started to increase conversion and it was a super successful team. [1:00:23] Man, I look back, if I had just-- [1:00:27] I just used more qualitative research, even though it was an area that traditionally you don't use qualitative research.

[1:00:32] I've got to save so much time. [1:00:34] It's also a great reminder of just not assuming [1:00:37] wins that work at another company will win for you. Which I think everyone's like, "Yeah, I know that, but [1:00:42] I think people don't know that. I think they often, "Oh, look at this. Amazon's killing it with this feature. If we add it, we're going to..." [1:00:48] We're going to win so hard. [1:00:50] And so that's a great reminder. Don't just take stories from others. This is something Shreyas actually talks about a lot, [1:00:55] don't take stories from other companies as gospel, your company. There's so many things [1:01:01] Not the same. [1:01:03] Awesome. What else? What else you got? The second example of that is [1:01:07] I was building a referral program and [1:01:11] We made a user research plan, and we ended up only executing half of it, which means we talked to the people [1:01:17] who [1:01:18] We're already using it successfully. [1:01:21] And... [1:01:22] we decided to skip [1:01:24] talking to the people who should use it but didn't. [1:01:28] And we're like, "Yeah, we get it." It's probably the same feedback. We're in a rush for a lot of other reasons. There's a lot of pressure, just unrelated reasons. And [1:01:36] just decided that, "Okay, we have enough information. We don't need to spend more time. Let's start shipping." [1:01:40] And [1:01:42] That was a huge mistake as well. Just spend so much time building something that didn't work. [1:01:45] Um-- [1:01:46] And, uh, [1:01:49] Yeah, I think my lesson there is the reasons that got me to hurry [1:01:53] and make that decision with not as much data. [1:01:57] were reasons that [1:01:59] I just kind of took people's word for stuff. [1:02:02] I didn't think as first principles as I should, and

[1:02:06] I really caved in to the time pressure. [1:02:09] Yeah. [1:02:10] It's like tall therapy. My tall, tall, listen to me. Just letting it all out. This is great. [1:02:15] And so, so far our recurring theme is spend a little more time in user research, talk to more customers. Again, something we always hear, but... [1:02:21] A lot of people are like, "Ah, user research." [1:02:24] I don't need that and what we're hearing here is [1:02:26] It would have saved your team months and quarters, potentially. [1:02:29] Yeah. [1:02:30] each of those each of those wasted entire quarter [1:02:32] Oh, geez. [1:02:33] All right, cool. All right, what else? What else we got? [1:02:37] have [1:02:38] uh, [1:02:39] three times been a hair away from getting fired. And what I mean by that is a senior executive has come to me and said, "You are a hair away from getting fired." [1:02:50] And one of them, [1:02:54] One of them is there were changes that the head of product really wanted to make, and [1:03:00] I felt strongly that it shouldn't be made, and I voiced that directly, candidly, personally, [1:03:08] Have you ever written repeatedly? [1:03:09] And [1:03:10] Then we had that conversation, and a colleague told me, "Listen, [1:03:15] Look at it this way. [1:03:16] If you trust the leadership team [1:03:19] to adapt if something's not working. I said, yeah, I trust them. [1:03:22] Well, [1:03:24] Like, what they need from you is just to rely on you that you're going to be with them, even if the disagree and commit. Like, that's what they need from you. If you're right, [1:03:33] They'll adapt. [1:03:34] If you're wrong, then great, you learned something. Product work got better.

[1:03:39] The most important thing was, there's a song, a lyrics that goes, you've got to give in to win. [1:03:45] Like it wasn't about being right. It was about [1:03:47] just like being supportive and, [1:03:50] letting things fix themselves instead of... [1:03:53] So that was... [1:03:55] That was that moment. It was really, like, literally, that was the conversation. [1:03:59] the second moment, bigger story, but [1:04:02] I was on a group. [1:04:04] that [1:04:05] the, uh, [1:04:06] My manager and I [1:04:08] Um, [1:04:09] We just weren't a fit. [1:04:10] And that happens. It's really important to share that happens. It's, it's, [1:04:14] It's common. [1:04:15] And [1:04:16] It's somebody I respect deeply and has done amazing things, and I still respect them. [1:04:21] We just didn't work well together. [1:04:24] And the next step was, "Okay, well, I guess, you know, it's time to let me go." [1:04:29] And [1:04:30] His manager was like, hey, you know, [1:04:32] Before we let you go, [1:04:34] I want you to stay at this company. [1:04:36] and let's find you another group to work in. [1:04:39] So, [1:04:41] I was like, okay. He's like, just finish [1:04:43] the initiatives you're on, don't start new ones. [1:04:45] And quarterly planning is coming up, sit in all the meetings. [1:04:48] look for opportunities, and things will work out. [1:04:52] And [1:04:53] I did that and I didn't find an opportunity that I was excited about. [1:04:58] and my initiatives wound down. [1:05:01] and [1:05:02] I didn't know, okay, well, what's going to happen? [1:05:06] And [1:05:07] Then there was a group where actually three PMs left at the same time. One went on maternity leave.

[1:05:13] One got an offer from Fang and one had to start an emergency Tiger team. [1:05:17] for their area of expertise. [1:05:20] This director, he filled two of the roles, one internal hire, one external hire, and there was one more role. [1:05:25] And I reached out to him and he's like, "Yeah, great. Come put your desk next to mine. [1:05:32] just work on a few projects together, get to know each other. And I could tell after a few weeks that even though we'd been getting to know each other, he was still interviewing for that third role. [1:05:41] And I realized that something was stuck. [1:05:44] And at the same time, [1:05:47] director who had reached out and said, "Hey, please stay at this company. You'll find something." Called me with a very different tone. He's like, "Listen, you can't just float around without a role. If you don't find something soon, we're going to have to let you go." [1:06:00] And he was right. [1:06:01] and [1:06:03] So I found myself in this situation. [1:06:06] And... [1:06:08] I actually reached out to a friend, Guy Pellid. He's a friend and a mentor. I actually met him through the Blending community. [1:06:14] - Amazing. - And yeah, he's here in Israel, we got coffee. [1:06:18] And so I'll see. [1:06:20] And he told me, listen, like, [1:06:21] Clearly, you have nothing to lose. There's probably an elephant in the room. [1:06:26] new director, [1:06:27] uh is wondering why'd you leave this old group he's not opening he's not broaching the topic [1:06:32] So it's up to you to do it. [1:06:34] And I was like, OK, what do I say? He's like, well, what would you say to him if you didn't have to edit yourself, if you didn't have to censor yourself? [1:06:40] I told Guy, well, this is what actually happened. This is what I believe. This is what I could have done better. And he's like...

[1:06:46] He's like, dude, that's... [1:06:47] Totally fine to share. You should share that. Like, word for it, just say that. [1:06:50] So, [1:06:51] The next day, I took... [1:06:54] The director said, and we had this conversation, I shared [1:06:58] just like, here's what I think I messed up, here's what I think I wasn't under my control. [1:07:03] And... [1:07:05] that conversation... [1:07:07] just the vibe change. I could feel a weight off our shoulders [1:07:11] We really felt like we got closer and [1:07:14] Um, [1:07:16] Two days later, I was part of the group. I joined the group. I did some really awesome work there. [1:07:21] That's such a powerful lesson right there of just [1:07:24] opening up and being vulnerable and just [1:07:27] Sharing what you're actually feeling [1:07:30] and this has come up a couple times in the podcast, is what brings people closer. [1:07:33] You think being vulnerable and showing weakness [1:07:37] It makes people think less of you, but almost always, [1:07:40] they think more of you because they [1:07:42] didn't realize what they're doing. They didn't realize what you're going through. [1:07:45] I think they're reading your mind. [1:07:47] Yeah, we've all been through that. [1:07:49] It doesn't look like it. When you see someone you think is successful, you admire, you look at somebody's LinkedIn profile, you look at their resume, you look at their bio, [1:07:59] It doesn't look like that, but [1:08:01] We've all been through all of it. [1:08:03] you know, [1:08:03] Right, and most times folks don't know that's what you're feeling or going through, and so just sharing here is what I... [1:08:09] Here's what I'm seeing, here's what I'm feeling, here's why things maybe aren't working for me. [1:08:13] It was a long wait. [1:08:14] Amazing. [1:08:15] These are awesome stories.

[1:08:17] What else? [1:08:18] Where else have you failed? I've single-handedly tanked new payments. [1:08:22] for a whole week for a company I worked for. It was a well-meaning change, it was super logical, it was kind of streamlined, and I violated my own framework for when do you run AB tests. I even wrote a blog post about this and I violated that. [1:08:35] I was like, "Oh, there's no downside here. We don't need to measure this. This is just going to make things way smoother." Then I get a call from marketing. They're like, "Why are none of our campaigns converting?" Listen to your own advice. Run a V test sometimes. Run a V test sometimes if you're dealing with really sensitive flows that have big downsides, even if you think logically in your mind, there's no reason there should be a downside [1:09:01] Great. If the stakes are really high, yeah. [1:09:04] All right, what else? [1:09:06] I have some stories. I don't know if they're failure stories, but they're kind of like Wild West. Let's do it. [1:09:11] That's what it feels like. It's like [1:09:13] Um, [1:09:14] Thank you. [1:09:14] One time I completely disobeyed quarterly planning. [1:09:19] my team was told to do one thing, and we just said, no, we're going to do something else. It's not as dramatic as it sounds. It was like, [1:09:26] "Hey, we really, really believe that this is an opportunity, and if we delay this, there's gonna be a really nonlinear cost, opportunity cost to this, and we really should do this." And like, "No, you should still work on this." Like, "Okay, well, what if we, you know, [1:09:36] made it a really small team, and it was just for one quarter. [1:09:40] And then [1:09:40] You know, like, fine. Okay. Okay. [1:09:43] We have built that capital to be able to do that. [1:09:46] I remember your W framework post. I love that. And I don't know what letter that would be, but that's how that works. You go off to the side, split it off into it, make it a Y.

[1:09:56] But most importantly, did it work? Was that a good idea? Was that a right-hand call? [1:10:00] uh, [1:10:01] It was a right call. It's become a way bigger team today. I still read press releases and blog posts from the company where it's clearly that team's work continues. Amazing. Excellent. [1:10:15] I got lucky, though. [1:10:16] Um, [1:10:17] Alright, that's what it sounds like. [1:10:20] Thank you. [1:10:21] Again, this is just like... [1:10:23] Wild West. Yeah, Wild West. PM is no less wild than life itself. [1:10:29] Uh, [1:10:30] I've pulled an April Fool's prank. [1:10:33] on an executive team that resulted in [1:10:36] my CEO, [1:10:38] Seeing me. [1:10:39] The next time he saw me, just looked me in the eye and said, fuck you, Tal. [1:10:43] and walked away. Can you describe the prank? So, the prank was... I'll say first of all, the best April Fool's pranks are the ones that... [1:10:52] touch [1:10:53] just ever so gently on people's biggest fears. [1:10:57] at that time. So in a work context, whatever somebody's biggest strategic fear is that quarter or that March of that year, whatever people are talking about, [1:11:05] You just have to touch it a little bit, they'll do the rest of the work. [1:11:10] There was this really big debate about internationalization. [1:11:13] and [1:11:14] Should we do that? And there was a big trade off to doing it, and other things we could be doing with the same resources. [1:11:19] And [1:11:20] the [1:11:21] This was on everybody's minds, especially the leadership team, and it was March.

[1:11:27] Um, [1:11:28] My buddy and I [1:11:30] Also, the company we [1:11:32] decided what would be people's biggest fears would be [1:11:35] that [1:11:36] a really big company would launch the same thing in Europe. [1:11:40] And, [1:11:41] we created not just a fake screenshot, like not just fake news, we created a fake [1:11:46] domain name, website, publication, [1:11:49] It was really detailed. We really invested a lot in it. [1:11:54] of this German website and [1:11:57] We made up a tech arm of their Spiegel. [1:12:01] We call this Spiegel tech. We bought the domain. I'm probably incriminating myself by saying this. [1:12:07] Then what we did is we knew that if we had sent that link on the 1st of April, [1:12:12] to the executive team, nobody would believe it. So what we did is every executive on the leadership team has that like senior [1:12:21] Report. [1:12:22] that they really trust. [1:12:23] So we got all of them in on it. [1:12:26] And the link would come from them. [1:12:31] Each of them [1:12:32] took it further. The senior engineer, he was really critical to the company, he created a fake recruiting poaching project [1:12:41] Email. [1:12:42] Ha! [1:12:44] If I recall, I think the legal counsel [1:12:46] created a fake cease and desist. We just went all out. And this was on a Saturday, so we ruined the executive team Saturday. They had an emergency call. It was a Saturday. We ruined the executive team Saturday. And every time that

[1:13:04] We decided that a particular executive had suffered enough, depending on when they woke up, and how long they had been dealing with us. [1:13:12] We would let them in on it, let them into the private channel, and ha-ha. [1:13:17] So, [1:13:18] Monday rolls around. [1:13:20] CEO sees me. Fuck you, Tal. [1:13:22] Great. [1:13:23] I'm still employed. [1:13:25] And [1:13:27] I hear later that day, [1:13:28] That... [1:13:29] The leadership team had their Monday meeting. [1:13:32] And somebody mentioned [1:13:34] that [1:13:35] You know, even though that was a prank, it really got me thinking and then the CTO of the company [1:13:40] goes, wait, what do you mean prank? [1:13:43] And it dawns on him. [1:13:46] And he just gets up, throws down his jacket, and walks out of the room. So we forgot to tell him he had to stew with that the whole weekend. So yeah, sometimes you gotta, something goes too far. That is well executed. Oh my god. [1:14:02] It actually reminds me at Airbnb when I was leading a lot of the April Fool's jokes year after year, and one of the best ones we did was we launched. It's basically we did the opposite of what you did. [1:14:11] We launched AirBRB. [1:14:13] which was a desk sharing service. [1:14:15] And we made a whole launch video. We announced it as a new product, Airbnb. The idea is you go get lunch and you can [1:14:21] I'll be right back, and then your desk can be rented out for like 20 minutes. [1:14:25] For 20 hours. [1:14:27] And we had a whole website, and we had, like, yeah, amazing video launching it. [1:14:31] And [1:14:32] Basically, it was the opposite. All the desk-sharing companies

[1:14:35] got freaked out. [1:14:37] Thank you. [1:14:37] Oh, no. Because it was very legit. [1:14:41] It's their greatest fear, yeah. [1:14:43] Yeah, exactly. You don't have to do too much. Yeah. Yeah. And the good news is we quickly, they quickly realized it was not real. [1:14:51] But we probably led to some calls, some board calls. [1:14:54] Okay. [1:14:55] This is awesome. Any other stories? [1:14:58] I've had thousands of people... [1:15:00] - There's one. - Tag my CEO on Twitter, calling on him to fire me. [1:15:05] This was by accident, but yeah. [1:15:09] I was actually on vacation, and [1:15:11] Um... [1:15:12] I got bored and I was like, I haven't logged into Twitter. I haven't posted anything to Twitter for a while. What's going on on Twitter? And I see that the notifications [1:15:22] Number? [1:15:23] It was maxed out. It's like 999 plus or whatever. And I was like, "Wait, what?" And I clicked the notifications tab and [1:15:31] I see the first tweet is has at CEO handle fired at Tal Reviv yet. [1:15:37] And I saw that that has a ton of retweets, and I just keep scrolling down, and I start to piece together the story. [1:15:44] There was a [1:15:46] a change, the pricing change that earlier I said had an uproar. And the Internet was up in arms about this, and somebody found [1:15:55] blog posts and [1:15:56] from a year earlier. [1:15:58] Brian Balfour interviewed me about an onboarding experiment that we did. [1:16:02] And part of that interview was, [1:16:05] I shared.

[1:16:06] that [1:16:09] You know, at this company, we'd rather have fewer customers where we make a bigger impact on their lives than a lot of customers that we make. [1:16:17] smaller impact. [1:16:19] and kind of explain the logic and the product principles. That was really core to the mission of the company. [1:16:26] And somebody took a very limited screenshot of that to prove that, you know, [1:16:29] Tal Raviv hates [1:16:32] poor people or something. [1:16:35] That screenshot went viral. [1:16:37] and that [1:16:38] those tweets got embedded on NPR and Washington Post. [1:16:41] and [1:16:42] That was a little nerve-wracking. [1:16:46] I wasn't fired because I actually wasn't connected to that. I wasn't on that. I really felt bad [1:16:51] that the [1:16:53] the PR team, marketing team, and all that. I reached out to them and was like, "I'm so sorry. You guys are working overtime because of my big mouth." And they're like, "Don't worry. This is happening to everybody at the company right now. [1:17:04] People are digging stuff up, unrelated stuff. [1:17:07] But, uh, [1:17:09] Yeah, that's stuff that happens. [1:17:11] What a life you've led, Tal. [1:17:14] Maybe just to close out this portion or... [1:17:17] discussion is there something that you think people should most take away from this really important stuff you're sharing of just like things that [1:17:25] usually don't go well for people that [1:17:28] do well. There are many things that go wrong. [1:17:31] So the feedback I get from executives about these moments that really [1:17:34] I think is transferable and helpful is that they know that no matter how silly I'm being,

[1:17:39] Or... [1:17:41] what kind of stuff I get myself into. [1:17:43] that [1:17:44] They know for a fact how seriously I take everything. [1:17:49] Like, they know how much I-- if I make a funny presentation about something, [1:17:53] And I put a lot of jokes into it, but they're like, it's still extremely clear how seriously you're taking this. [1:17:59] So I have peace of mind. [1:18:01] Yeah, I think you have to have both. You can't just, you know, [1:18:05] have these adventures or do these silly things or make these mistakes. [1:18:11] It's important to give the confidence that you know you're making a mistake, you're on top of it before anybody else. [1:18:15] that, you know, [1:18:17] It's bothering you more than anybody else. [1:18:19] that you've [1:18:20] if you're communicating and you're trying to make you creative, and like that, first of all, you've done all your homework and you've put a ton into it. And that gives you the basis. Like, the funny side of this is I have friends who make fun of me that [1:18:33] I work really hard to justify-- like, I have friends that make fun of me. I have friends that make fun of me, but I work really hard [1:18:40] so that I can increase the amount of bullshit that I can get away with having fired. Depends how you look at it, but it's really important to give that... [1:18:49] Peace of mind. [1:18:50] Yeah, build that trust bucket and then just deplete it completely every time. And then just throw it out the window. [1:18:56] Amazing. [1:18:57] Tal, is there anything else that... [1:18:59] You want to share... [1:19:00] Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, we've covered a ton of stuff. It feels like there's been three podcasts within one podcast. But just before we move on, is there anything else you wanted to share or touch on or leave listeners with?

[1:19:12] Let's do it. Let's do the lightning round. Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions. Are you ready? [1:19:20] I'm ready. [1:19:21] First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people? [1:19:25] The best book on product management that I've read. [1:19:28] um, [1:19:29] It's called "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen" and "Listen So Kids Will Talk." I encountered this book [1:19:36] My sister is a speech therapist, and she had on her bookshelf at home in her apartment. And I was jet lagged one night. I was visiting her, and I read it. [1:19:45] and [1:19:47] If anybody has read Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss, where he talks about how [1:19:52] These senior FBI agents in the '70s, '80s were realizing that all they were doing in their negotiating tactics were just... [1:19:58] not working. [1:19:59] and decided to try something different. And that's something that is basically nonviolent communication. [1:20:04] And he gives these amazing examples of decades of using this with kidnappers and [1:20:09] terrorists and organized crime to defuse situations. [1:20:14] and create productive outcomes. [1:20:17] So, [1:20:18] uh, [1:20:19] This book, with all due respect to FBI agents, and terrorists, and hijackers, and kidnappers, [1:20:26] This is about kids. So this book is for me, this is what really the example is how it's communicated. [1:20:35] It's illustrated almost like a comic book. Tons of super concrete examples. And for me, I think that's when these principles really sunk in. That book really...

[1:20:46] resonated with me the most, more than the book itself for nonviolent communication or the Never Split the Difference, both of which are awesome. [1:20:54] I really recommend that book. [1:20:56] Man, I want to do a whole podcast on what you learned there, but I'm going to force myself to move on. Yeah. That's awesome. This is going to be really helpful to me as a new parent. [1:21:04] There's... [1:21:05] There's a book that another, I'm just going to throw out a book recommendation, reverse lighting around on this topic. [1:21:10] That Joe Hudson, a recent podcast guest, [1:21:12] recommend it offline that I've found to be incredibly helpful. It's called Listen. [1:21:17] It's an orange book, so there's a few on Amazon, and we'll link to it in the show notes, but it's just called Listen. [1:21:22] and it's [1:21:23] about why listening is the most powerful way to [1:21:26] help your kids get through stuff that is challenging to them. [1:21:29] That's a powerful title. [1:21:31] Just listen. [1:21:32] That's it. [1:21:33] And there's all these different ways of listening. So anyway, OK, we'll keep going. [1:21:37] Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed? [1:21:40] I recently rediscovered [1:21:42] Ted Lasso. [1:21:44] The first time I watched it, I got tons of recommendations. It's hilarious. I didn't connect to it. I just didn't connect to the humor. I was like, "Ah, okay, fine." [1:21:51] I stopped watching it. [1:21:54] and [1:21:54] Then I heard a podcast where somebody recommended watching it from a point of view of leadership lessons, and they just couldn't... [1:22:00] stop recommending this, so passionately recommended it. And I was like, OK, let me revisit this. [1:22:06] And [1:22:07] when you watch it from that point of view, [1:22:10] It's mind-blowing. [1:22:11] If you think about, I'm sure a ton of people listening to this have watched the show. [1:22:16] You think about the premise of the show, it's this guy who's been given...

[1:22:19] an impossible task. [1:22:21] He's surrounded by [1:22:23] The worst human beings in the world. Just the worst human beings and behaviors. [1:22:31] The way he gets through that [1:22:33] It's hard to describe. You have to watch it. [1:22:36] I think any attempt to summarize it. The show, just watching how this character behaves and gets through this stuff is... [1:22:42] is incredible when you watch it from that point of view. [1:22:46] For me, when I... [1:22:47] um, [1:22:49] It definitely affected how I work. [1:22:52] Definitely influenced me, but not just work, just also how I... [1:22:56] deal with [1:22:58] you know, aggressive Middle Eastern urban life situations, how I [1:23:03] I've applied this dealing with really tough locals at surf breaks. [1:23:10] in South America. [1:23:11] Like it's incredible. Uh, [1:23:14] I'll give a story of the surf break. I was in Chile, and [1:23:19] Um, [1:23:20] I was surfing, and it was an hour of the day where a lot of people who were local would be surfing, and a bunch came out. [1:23:27] and [1:23:28] They started giving me these looks. This happens everywhere in the world, every surf break. [1:23:33] and [1:23:35] It's just like a really uncomfortable experience. [1:23:37] And [1:23:38] Um, [1:23:39] Thank you. [1:23:40] One of the guys especially. [1:23:42] And after a while, I was realizing, like, I'm not going to get the surf if this keeps up. And, you know, [1:23:48] I'm not, there's no conflict way to get out of this. And,

[1:23:52] I swam up to him. [1:23:54] And I asked him, I was like, [1:23:58] Hey, are you from PeachyLemma? Are you from here? [1:24:02] He's like, "Yeah, why?" [1:24:04] I was like, you are one of the luckiest people in the world. [1:24:07] And he was totally caught off guard. He started smiling. [1:24:13] And like, you know, that just changed the whole vibe. It got to a point where, you know, he was telling other people like, you know, let me have this wave. And, um, [1:24:23] That's not my experience in a lot of surf breaks and [1:24:26] Um, [1:24:27] My friend calls it the Ted Lasso somebody. [1:24:32] which is also very genuine. You really have to believe it. [1:24:35] Okay. [1:24:35] Next question. Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love? [1:24:39] So this morning, I spent half the day surfing, and... [1:24:43] I think the products I've really come to appreciate, there's not a lot of products used in surfing. It's like a wetsuit, like war shorts. [1:24:49] you know, maybe a hat, but [1:24:52] you can really feel [1:24:54] I surf with... [1:24:57] O'Neill wetsuit, Hyperfreak wetsuit, but that doesn't matter. It's like when a [1:25:02] A piece of gear is like [1:25:05] Really well constructed. [1:25:07] you can feel that the person behind this [1:25:10] also surfs or spends a lot of time with surfers and really gets you probably gets you more than [1:25:16] you understand on face value, and you start to notice all these details [1:25:20] over time. It takes a long time to notice all these details.

[1:25:23] and you can really feel that there's a person behind this product that gets you. [1:25:27] And that's like, [1:25:28] It's kind of like art, almost. [1:25:30] You feel... [1:25:31] a piece of art. [1:25:32] or music really resonates with you, you feel that the artist is like, [1:25:36] communicating with you directly and letting you feel something that they were feeling. [1:25:39] It's almost like that. [1:25:42] Um, [1:25:43] I think, for me, it's outdoor equipment. [1:25:45] Uh-huh. [1:25:46] you can feel that the person behind this is using it along there with you. [1:25:50] First time a wetsuit's been recommended on the podcast. A great milestone. [1:25:55] Two more questions. [1:25:56] Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful in work or in life, share with friends or... [1:26:01] family. [1:26:02] I think I'm doing three surf stories in a row, but... [1:26:07] My this is a life model is just like stuck in my head. I [1:26:10] for more than a decade now. [1:26:14] which comes from [1:26:16] a piece of plywood [1:26:18] outside a surf shop in Mexico. [1:26:20] that was painted on it. You can't stop the waves, but you can learn how to surf. [1:26:24] and [1:26:27] and uh [1:26:29] Yeah. [1:26:29] Thank you. [1:26:30] There's a lot to that over time that I've [1:26:34] really try to apply that in a lot of ways emotionally. [1:26:37] Um... [1:26:39] organizationally, like at every level, you think about that. [1:26:43] Along those lines, final question. So at the beginning of this podcast, you mentioned that this podcast has been a long time coming. [1:26:49] And the reason that's the case is we had this scheduled for some time in early October.

[1:26:54] You live in Israel. [1:26:57] War broke out. [1:26:58] You've been living through that, being in Israel this entire time. [1:27:01] I saw this Venn diagram that you put out that I think summarizes your life right now, which is... [1:27:06] I forget one side of it, but just like... Apocalypse. Apocalypse. One circle. The other is got to get to work. [1:27:13] You've got to wake up and make a show. Israel's in the middle. That's where we are. And you've been in the middle of that for the past year. [1:27:20] So I'd love to just-- [1:27:22] Briefly just hear how that's been for you in the past year. How are you doing? How's... [1:27:26] How's life? [1:27:27] for you. [1:27:28] Here at Riverside... [1:27:30] We've had a bunch of people out for reserve duty. [1:27:33] uh... [1:27:34] I think all of them are back now. [1:27:37] I have a team lead, uh, [1:27:40] Well, people are still going in and out of reserve duty while working here. [1:27:43] I have a team lead [1:27:45] who leaves some days around... [1:27:48] you know, 4:00 p.m. [1:27:49] goes to the base, [1:27:52] I won't say what he has to do, but it's super intense. [1:27:56] and shows up the next morning a little tired, but [1:27:59] Back at work. [1:28:00] And-- [1:28:02] And in general, we have-- it's not just in Israel, we have teammates in Ukraine. [1:28:07] all along at the same time. One of my teams is almost entirely in Ukraine. We've had moments [1:28:15] we'll all be on a call, and then there'll be a missile [1:28:20] Siren [1:28:21] here in Israel, here in Tel Aviv. [1:28:23] and we'll say, "Hey, sorry, we gotta go."

[1:28:25] go down to the shelter, hear the explosions overhead, [1:28:28] come back, sit back down, [1:28:31] Later that day, we'll have another meeting. [1:28:33] And on the Ukraine side, you'll hear like, [1:28:36] Hey, that beeping. [1:28:38] Isn't that the missile alert? [1:28:41] on your end, and Andre, isn't that the critical error on your iPhone? He looks at his phone, he'll be like, [1:28:48] Yeah, but I got 10 minutes. Let's just finish the meeting. [1:28:51] These surreal moments where [1:28:54] You just... [1:28:55] at the same time where everything's [1:28:57] Not normal. [1:28:58] people have this really strong desire for normalcy. [1:29:01] it's work and everything around us and our routines like [1:29:06] become more important than ever. [1:29:07] and [1:29:09] It's just these, you know, you have, oh, you know, where's Vlad? Oh, you know, the power grid was attacked in this town, so he's working on getting the generator back up. [1:29:16] Okay. [1:29:19] But [1:29:20] you know, [1:29:21] I don't know if it's like a no excuses mindset or badassery so much as I know on my end, it's [1:29:27] I think for Ukraine, definitely. Mine is just like... [1:29:30] really, really crave the routine and the sense of normalcy when you can get those moments. And [1:29:36] Um, [1:29:37] Like I said, I you know, I think during this podcast working on this course all these things on I [1:29:41] I'm not doing them because things are normal. I'm doing them because they're not. [1:29:45] So... [1:29:47] And I'll use this opportunity to say that [1:29:50] you know, biggest thing in all of our minds is [1:29:53] there's [1:29:54] 107 hostages that have been held for 328 days by Hamas.

[1:29:59] Yeah. [1:30:00] Yeah. [1:30:01] Need to bring them home now. [1:30:03] Yeah. [1:30:05] Let's hope also just come home. Let's hope things end soon. [1:30:09] I'm really impressed with how much you've been able to get done in the middle of all that. [1:30:14] And thanks for making time for this. I know that this isn't the-- [1:30:18] the most important thing in the world right now. [1:30:20] But I think this conversation is going to help a lot of people, and you have so much wisdom to share. [1:30:25] Thanks for being here, Joel. [1:30:26] Thank you. [1:30:28] on the course real quick, just to make sure people check it out. How do people find it? Just throw that out there as a final step. [1:30:34] It's on maven.com. [1:30:36] in the product catalog. [1:30:39] and I'll have it I'll probably post links to my LinkedIn as well you can find it there [1:30:44] and uh... [1:30:46] Yeah, it'll launch in... [1:30:48] Mid-October. [1:30:49] That'll be the first cohort. [1:30:50] Amazing. And we'll link to it in the show notes. [1:30:52] Tal, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. [1:30:56] Bye, everyone. [1:31:16] at Lenny's Podcast dot com. [1:31:18] See you in the next episode.