#2450 - Tommy Wood

[00:00] the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day all right nice to meet you sir stimulated mind [00:17] future proof for your brain. Is that possible? Future proof. Why can't I say that? I already have dementia. Future proof your brain from dementia and stay sharp at any age. [00:28] First of all, what... [00:31] prompted you to write this? [00:34] So I've spent... [00:36] a long time working in a whole range of different spheres related to the brain, how to treat newborn brain injury, how to treat and maybe even prevent certain traumatic brain injuries and concussions, looking at what affects long-term cognitive decline and dementia, [00:53] as well as working with [00:54] elite professional athletes, particularly Formula One drivers. [00:58] trying to help them stay on top of their game for as long as possible. [01:01] and I saw across all those different [01:05] areas [01:06] There are these core things that the brain seems to thrive on. [01:10] that are required either for development or maintenance of cognitive function. And these are things that [01:16] people can apply to themselves on a day-to-day basis, improve their focus and well-being now, and then long-term, [01:24] that translates to a lower risk of dementia. So is dementia and

[01:30] Is it a genetic thing or is it a function of atrophy? Is it a combination of those things? It's a combination of those things. Certainly there's a genetic component. [01:44] So... [01:45] Maybe I will zoom out to start with and just think about what is dementia. [01:50] dementia is [01:52] the [01:53] clinical diagnosis of [01:55] losing so much cognitive function that you're not able to take care of yourself on a day-to-day basis. [02:00] There are... [02:01] several different types of dementia, [02:03] The most common is Alzheimer's disease. [02:05] That's something like 60 to 80 percent of cases of dementia. [02:09] The next most common is vascular dementia, something like 10 to 20%. And then there are others like frontotemporal dementia, Lewy body dementia, dementia you get with Parkinson's disease. [02:21] something like 70 to 90 percent of dementias. [02:24] they are directly tied to lifestyle and the environment. [02:30] And right now, it's estimated that somewhere between 45 and maybe even 70 or more percent of dementias are preventable. And most of those fall into those two categories. [02:40] There is a genetic component. [02:42] So, [02:44] Alzheimer's disease has two broad types. There's early onset Alzheimer's disease that's caused by a single mutation in a single gene. [02:52] something like the amyloid precursor protein gene or one of the presenetan genes. [02:56] those people get Alzheimer's in their 30s to 50s. [02:59] It's a very...

[03:01] predictable and quite rapid decline sometimes [03:05] But that's maybe 1% of Alzheimer's. [03:07] the vast majority, like when we think about Alzheimer's, we think about an age-related dementia. [03:12] and [03:13] This is much more... [03:14] related to the environment. So there is a genetic component [03:18] You might have heard of ApoE... [03:20] four yeah so you can have three different flavors of apoe protein e uh two three and four you get two copies which is the one that makes you more um more likely to get cte [03:33] Is that two? No, so that's four as well. Yeah, so four... [03:39] um, essentially has an effect of amplifying certain inflammatory effects, um, in the brain. That's probably why it makes CTE worse, makes it more likely for you to get CTE. Cause if you're, if you're getting repetitive impacts, repetitive injuries, then it sort of exacerbates or makes that inflammatory response worse. Um, [03:57] But when you think about that in terms of Alzheimer's, if you have one copy of APOE4, [04:01] your risk of Alzheimer's is increased by sort of two to six times. If you have two copies, it's six to 20 times, depending on how you look at it. [04:10] But... [04:11] All the data suggests... [04:13] The ApoE4 is a risk multiplier. [04:17] Right. So it's not that if you have a copy of APO before, you're definitely going to get dementia. It's that in the setting, particularly of... [04:25] the modern environment. [04:28] risks of dementia or risk factors for dementia are amplified like

[04:32] Excessive alcohol intake, physical inactivity. [04:35] low quality diet. [04:37] So that also means that [04:39] if you have... [04:40] Um, [04:41] If you if you then address those risk factors, you have greater benefit. [04:45] because you're offsetting some of that additional risk. So... [04:48] However you look at dementia from a genetic standpoint, and it can also be [04:52] family history, right? If you have a family history of dementia, you have an increased risk of dementia. But a lot of what comes with family history is shared environment and shared lifestyle, right? You eat and sleep and move like your parents did. And so if they had a lifestyle that might increase their risk of dementia, [05:08] you get that as well. So even if you do have an increased genetic risk, [05:12] you can offset a large part of that through lifestyle and other environmental factors. Okay. So for some people, there's an increased genetic risk. But do some people who do not have this increased genetic risk, do they still have a possibility of getting dementia just from atrophy or just from... [05:28] sedentary lifestyle, no stimulation whatsoever? Yes. So the kind of the way we would say it is that not everybody who has ApoE4 gets Alzheimer's and most people who have Alzheimer's do not have ApoE4. So absolutely. Okay. So... [05:44] Is it just like everything else, like your muscles atrophy, your bones weaken when you don't put load on them? Is that what it is? Yeah. So that's like the core thesis of my book. It's called The Stimulated Mind for that reason. [05:59] in... [06:00] The... [06:01] And the title is slightly provocative because in the modern world, we are hyper-stimulated, over-stimulated and nonsense. Exactly. So we're over-stimulated and under-stimulated at the same time. Right. We're getting a lot of input, but we're not.

[06:13] doing any calculations. We're not formulating new ideas. We're not being creative. We're not problem solving. We're just being inundated with nonsense. Exactly. So the function of any tissue in the body, right? You mentioned the muscles, the bones, the liver, the immune system. [06:28] Their function is... [06:29] are dependent on the stimulus you apply to them. Right. And so the brain is exactly the same. And if you want functions and networks in the brain to function to perform well, you need to challenge them in order to enhance capacity. Do you think you need to keep your liver working healthy by drinking every now and then? So it's the example of, yes, if you drink a lot of alcohol, your liver gets better at metabolizing alcohol. [06:59] to keep your liver healthy. Probably not. Didn't they used to do that with people that had, if they had lung problems, they would give them cigarettes? Yeah. Like people with asthma? Yeah, yeah. And that didn't turn out so great. The theory was okay, but... I think they should have just been breathing heavy. That would have been a better application of that, right? Because it's just like you don't want to torture... Your lungs aren't a filter to, like, torture you. Yeah. [07:26] So, when you [07:29] to you that has Alzheimer's or is it just a field of study that you're interested in? [07:34] Yeah, there was two different things. One... [07:37] Um, [07:38] I focused initially on [07:40] the brain early in life and then... [07:42] your elite level cognitive performance in athletes.

[07:46] And you kind of see that... [07:47] these things sort of tie together, like what happens early in life, what happens during life affects what happens later in life. But I also had my grandfather died of dementia. He he was an alcoholic. [07:57] And he had a combination of alcoholic, you know, alcohol induced brain atrophy plus vascular dementia. [08:04] Ugh. [08:05] This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is brought to you by Paramount+. UFC history is going down at the White House. It's the world's greatest fights on America's biggest stage. Watch UFC Freedom 250 at the White House live today only on Paramount+. [08:25] This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it. Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is. [08:55] handle the rest. Grilled steaks, smoked ribs, even baked pizza, all on one grill. If you're into fire, flavor, and doing things right, check out Traeger Grills. [09:07] This summer, the Cup is taking over the U.S., and only DraftKings has you covered every step of the way. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller, every stoppage time moment that flips the whole tournament. Sweat all the big matches you love in real time with a seamless experience built for the world's biggest stage. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app.

[09:37] to get $200 in rewards within 21 days. That's CodeRogan in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours. [10:03] I really wonder about people today and this is one of the reasons why I'm so interested in this because what we were just talking about before that people are being oversaturated with nonsense but not stimulated in any way that challenges your mind. I mean this is a constant state today. And then on top of that you've got a lot of people that are using… [10:25] AI throughout their day to solve all their problems where they don't think at all. Yeah. And there's been some studies on that that show that it's a decrease in cognitive function. Like when they ask them to actually use their brain, the brain works less well than it did before they started. So you're not getting educated by chat CPT. No. Or any of these. What you're doing is you're letting it think for you. Absolutely. So this one, maybe one of the studies you're thinking of was a study they did at MIT. Yeah. [10:53] And they had students write essays. [10:55] And they could either... [10:56] Just write it. [10:58] using whatever they had in their head already, or using Google, or using an LLM. And what they showed was that as you increase the amount of, like, outside...

[11:09] support you got [11:11] Google and then [11:12] I think it was chat GPT. Then there was less activity in the brain networks associated with actually doing the task. [11:19] and students remembered less well afterwards. So, [11:24] I mean, this isn't surprising. Not at all. You're not using your brain, therefore it doesn't engage in the task. But what's interesting is that they found a version... [11:33] So like some of the students who... [11:35] had previously... [11:36] Written the written written an essay just for themselves Then they asked them to go back and use chat GPT on top and what they found was that I [11:46] the final output was better. So... [11:49] The way that we can use these tools rather than just asking it to do all the stuff for us, which is what most people are doing, and I think will cause skills and maybe even parts of the brain to atrophy because they're not being used, is we use them as orthotics. Like they can expand our capacities, right? You try writing it all first and then you say, hey, what did I miss? What am I not thinking about? And you can kind of build on it from there. And that might perhaps actually stimulate your mind. Exactly. Why didn't I think of that? [12:19] next time I'm writing a paragraph, I'll consider these options. Yeah, exactly. So you actually have to fully engage your brain in that process. But then the end result might be better. Well, it's just such uncharted territory for us, right? All this, especially social media. I mean, completely uncharted territory that people are staring at their hand for eight hours a day. I mean, that's really what you're doing. You're staring at your hand and you're hoping...

[12:45] usually unsuccessfully, to get something that really excites you and something that's really unique and changes your perspective on things. I mean, I think maybe when I was using social media every day, maybe once a day I would get something that I was really interested in that I would save. I'd go, oh, that's actually interesting. And I would think, okay, that'd be a good subject to bring up on the podcast. But the rest of the time, it was just horseshit. Well, parts of the algorithm... [13:13] And this... [13:14] I'm not an expert in training algorithms to do this, but part of the goal of the algorithm is that you don't get everything that [13:21] is perfect, that immediately captures your attention up front, right? Because you want it to be random, [13:28] And there's... [13:30] method in the randomness that keeps you scrolling. Because eventually you'll get those small bumps that then keep you going. But what's particularly interesting about... [13:40] social media is it leverages the fact that we are social beings. So we prioritize information that is called, the acronym is PRIME, prestigious, in-group, moral, and emotional. And this is even greater in social context, right? Because we are trying to learn about our social environment so that we can survive our group and be fitter. And so social media makes us think that we will get that information whilst at the same time offering us the exact opposite, which is essentially [14:10] but it leverages that desire of the human brain [14:14] to find this social information and this social connection

[14:18] whilst not giving us any of that. Also, without it getting any feedback from another human being while you're communicating ideas, so you can say the most horrible shit to people in a comment or a text message, and you don't think about it because it's like there's not a person there, not right in front of you. [14:36] It's like an anti-human device. Very weird. [14:40] But... [14:40] I mean, if your goal is to capture attention, they're doing a great job of it. Well, not just that. They're acquiring enormous wealth and also enormous influence over the – [14:52] just [14:54] all sorts of things, politics, economics. I mean, some of the richest corporations in the world, they gather a thing that we never thought of was valuable, which is data. [15:05] When people first started using these things, when people first started using the internet, nobody really thought that data was going to be one of the biggest commodities in the world. Yeah, but now – [15:15] If they know what captures your attention and what you'll spend money on, that's the perfect way to... [15:22] get as much out of you as possible. So the concept is future-proofing your brain. [15:29] What are the things that you think people should be doing to try to future-proof, other than avoiding social media and avoiding a lot of the stuff that we're talking about here? [15:41] Every tool has a possible use. So, for instance, social media. If you have crafted a social media that allows you to maintain connections that you wouldn't have otherwise, like the original...

[15:54] version of Facebook as it existed 25 years ago was just like posting pictures and you could like chat with some family members. Right. Right. So if you use social media like that and there are studies that show that if you're using online tools, including social media, and it increases communication and connection. [16:13] beyond what you would have had otherwise, that can be a net benefit. [16:16] If it's all you use and it's replacing in-person human connection, then it's a net negative. So there can be ways that it could be beneficial. And, you know, if your Instagram feed is just like... [16:27] cute dogs running around in the snow, which is what most of mine is right now, right? That can be a nice five minute break in between like cognitively demanding tasks. Right. That's, that's fine. Um, but, but, [16:40] When you think about [16:42] future-proofing your brain, this idea that [16:45] There is some unknowable future, right? We don't know what the future is going to look like. [16:50] But if we want to exist in that future, we're going to need... [16:54] Um, [16:54] good processing speed, good decision-making skills. [16:57] Good working memory. [17:00] Good. [17:00] emotional and [17:02] social skills, right? And so... [17:06] in order to... [17:08] maintain those, we need to challenge and stimulate them. [17:11] So I think the most important thing most people can do [17:16] is think about... [17:18] New challenging... [17:20] and often creative skills and there's a lot of evidence for creative arts, music,

[17:26] What they do is they improve the function of networks in the brain that are... [17:31] at risk. [17:33] during the process of aging. [17:35] particularly because [17:37] They're important for attention and social connection. And so if we... [17:43] really invest time in doing these things that we suck at, [17:46] and get better at them. We maintain these broad cognitive skills that we're going to need in the future, regardless of what happens. [17:54] And some of that is also personal. So I like the goal is to build as much cognitive capacity as possible. Right. I have this idea of headroom, which is the difference between what you what you need on a day to day basis. [18:07] versus what you're truly capable of. [18:09] It's the difference between like on a day to day basis, your legs need to be strong enough to like get you up off the toilet. Right. But your maximum capacity is like, what's your max back squat? [18:19] The difference between those is your headroom. And then that gives you capacity to perform when... [18:26] You're injured or sick or you need to like lift your car off your buddy because it got flipped in a car accident like all those things like when you need to draw on greater resources you want those resources to be there. Because we are going to be stressed, sleep deprived, sick, and we still want our brains to function. So investing in like really challenging things. [18:45] tasks and skills builds that capacity so that we have access to it when we need it. What is the function and what is the effect on the brain when you learn a new skill, like sucking at something, which I always tell people is one of the best things you can do. A lot of people don't enjoy it because their ego, they don't like being frustrated that they're terrible at something, but there's something about not being good at something and dedicating yourself to it and seeing market improvement that stimulates all sorts of areas

[19:15] mind, which I find really interesting. So... [19:19] most people don't realize that [19:21] The process of learning... [19:23] Which in itself is like the core process of neuroplasticity, right? The brain making new connections and cementing new connections. [19:31] That whole process. [19:32] is driven by failure. [19:35] Essentially and making mistakes because your brain is a prediction machine. It's constantly predicting what's going to happen next based on the world around you and what you're trying to do. And so. [19:46] Imagine that [19:47] you're trying to [19:48] do some kind of new move in Jiu Jitsu or something. [19:52] And... [19:53] You have no idea how to do it. [19:55] You're going to try it and there's going to be this big gap between your expectation and reality. That's going to be frustrating. Right. That's the feeling of failure. But that's what. [20:05] diverts resources in the brain to say, hey, we need to close the gap between what we hoped would happen and what actually happened. And that's what drives neuroplasticity. [20:13] And this is also then what drives the cementing and function of these networks in the brain associated with that. [20:20] So, [20:21] the idea that [20:22] you start sucking at something and you get better at it over time. [20:26] That is exactly the thing that the brain needs in order to improve and maintain its function. Think you know what's going to happen during the big game? Call it with DraftKings Predictions, a new app where you can predict outcomes on football's biggest game. Make real money predictions on the big game and put your money where your knowledge is. Pick a topic, make your prediction. What will the total score be? Will the underdog cover? Which team will be lifting the trophy at the end?

[20:56] game smarts pay off draft kings prediction is new simple to use with big game trading available in california texas florida and more download now new draft kings predictions customers get up to a 75 dollar first trade bonus with promo code rogan don't just feel it predict it with draft kings predictions the crown is yours draft kings predictions is a cftc registered introducing [21:26] Often required. Non-withdrawable predictions dollars expire in one year. Ends February 8th, 2026. Market availability varies. Eligibility restrictions apply. See terms at dkng.co slash predictions promo. How many of those things should you take on at once though? This is my issue. I have a problem. I wish I could have four lives that I could run simultaneously. I would do four. I'd have four different occupations. So I try to smash as many things [21:56] I think I'm doing too many different things that I'm trying to get good at. Yeah. And maybe it would be better if I just concentrated on one. [22:04] So, [22:04] There's a few different ways to look at this. [22:06] I think that [22:08] A broad base and a broad range of different skills is probably... [22:13] something that we should all hope to have like talent stacking. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And if you think about, um, [22:19] Like one of my favorite books is Range by David Epstein, which which talks about the broad range of skills that people who then really success really succeed in academia or sports have. Right. They didn't specialize really early. They have like a broad base of talents that they can then draw upon as they as they specialize later in life. And I think that's something that we can all aspire to. But equally.

[22:40] what's probably more common is that [22:42] We try something and we do it for a little while and then we just kind of like give up on it and we try something else. [22:48] And yeah, there's like a little bit of benefit to that. But when you look at some of the studies that... [22:53] Um, [22:54] really examine the effect of learning some of these creative skills and they've done it with tango dancers and painters and video gamers. When you when you when you compare an expert to an amateur. [23:07] and where you're seeing the benefits of expertise in terms of the function of some of these networks in the brain, it really is the development of some level of expertise is probably required to see. [23:17] the maximum benefit. Obviously, the learning curve is steepest at the beginning, right? Right when you're beginning to learn something, that's when you'll learn the fastest. But there is also some benefit to expertise. So some of that, like just to say that, [23:31] Pick... [23:32] one or two things that you're actually excited to continue getting better at for a long period of time and so then maybe you do have to like chart like try a bunch of different things until you [23:44] like gets you going. But... [23:46] across all those different skills, they have similar core effects on the brain. So you don't have to do one [23:53] Or both. You can just pick the one that you enjoy the most. So it's just about the struggle of trying to get better at something, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. And my wife is learning a new language right now. And she's been so excited about it. And it's like it's really interesting because she starts talking around the house in French.

[24:15] One of those things where you're like, I'm watching her do it. She wasn't doing it, and then she's been doing it over the last couple of months. And I'm seeing this excitement in this new project. And we were talking about it. [24:26] about how that is one of the things that's very difficult to do, but – [24:32] It's more complex than learning because it's learning and interacting. It's not just learning. You're learning, but you have to. It requires like this back and forth with another person. You have to understand sentence structure. It's just like calm. And especially French is so different than English. There's so much weird shit involved in it. But I could see in her that this is very stimulating to her mind. Yeah. [25:02] I'm like, fuck, where do you have the time to learn a language? But then I thought about, like, when I was on social media all the time, I would look down at my phone some days and it would say, screen use today, six hours. I'm like, fucking six hours. That's where your time is. Right. If you spent six hours just learning Spanish, you'd be fluent. I'd be able to go to Taqueria and order in Spanish, you know? Yeah. It's like... [25:24] We spend so much time doing nonsense that – [25:29] Anything that you can do that requires your brain to be in that uncomfortable state of, what is this? Oh, it's this. Is that this? Got it. That dance, that firing of the synapses and forcing your brain to figure this puzzle out.

[25:51] So many people don't have that. And I see it in people that get stagnant where they're doing the same thing every day. Their job is fairly mundane and kind of boring. And maybe they like it, but there's nothing stimulating about it. They're talking to the same boring ass people. They don't exercise. They go home, they watch TV, and then they shut off and they do it all again. [26:21] mundane existences like their stimulation is so low that their ability to be stimulated is low [26:29] I think that [26:30] Thank you. [26:31] That thing you describe... [26:34] is so baked into our society that we've [26:38] started to believe that it's normal right so when you look at the trajectory of cognitive function over the like over like your entire life [26:46] Imagine like a graph where on the one side you have cognitive function and it could be something basic like processing speed. How quickly do you does your brain process information on the bottom is age, right? [26:56] It tends to peak sometime around our sort of mid-20s to early 30s. [27:01] it's usually the peak on average tends to be higher and later. [27:06] more time we spend in education so the more time we spend [27:10] essentially as professional learners... [27:12] the more we can build that kind of final capacity. [27:15] After that, it's just sort of like... [27:17] an average decrease downwards. And... [27:20] A colleague of mine, Josh Turknight and I, he's a neurologist, we wrote a paper a couple of years ago where we...

[27:28] theorize that [27:29] The reason why we see that decline [27:32] at the population level in cognitive function from about that age is because... [27:37] We go to work. [27:38] We do the same thing again and again and again. [27:41] And then... [27:44] Everything else, their life gets in the way. [27:47] we never spend that same time [27:51] investing in building our cognitive capacities the way we did when we were kids and when we were in school and so [27:58] the decline [27:59] is partly because we just stop doing that. So one of the theories of aging is that it's just the continuation of development, like process of development. And most of the processes of development in the brain [28:13] uh... [28:14] refining connections based on the environment and the stimulus the brain receives. [28:19] So if you start removing stimuli because you're no longer engaging in these like cognitively challenging things... [28:25] the brain is going to start removing connections. Hey, I don't need that. Right. I'm not I'm not using this part of my brain. And as a result, [28:31] you start to see decline. And so there are studies that show if you have a very stimulating job, it's very complex, problem-solving skills, lots of social interactions, you have a slower rate of cognitive decline as an adult and a lower risk of dementia. You see in individuals who continue to engage in reading, writing, lectures, dancing, [28:54] you know, a whole bunch of hobbies. [28:56] again you see a slowed rate of decline. So,

[28:59] Some of what we just expect to happen with age is because of the way we stop engaging with the world and we stop challenging ourselves. Well, it completely makes sense, right? Like if you think about physical activity, it goes along the same kind of path. You see, I have friends. I'm 58, which is crazy to say. It sounds so old. But I have friends that are 58 that are basically – they're skeletons with like meat hanging around various parts of it. [29:29] is very similar to what it was when I was in my 30s. The only way that I could really test it [29:35] It's like physical competition and I'm not really interested in that. I don't want to get hurt. [29:40] My capacity for work is very similar. Yeah. And I know that because I force it. Yeah. You know, I make myself do it. And I would imagine the same thing is true with – [29:51] with the mind. I mean, it has to be. I think it's all together. It's use it or lose it. And if your mind doesn't have a need to be constantly intrigued and stimulated, like you got to think for survival, right? [30:07] One of the things that's speculated – maybe I can ask you about this because this is one of – I think about this a lot. Like what is ADHD? [30:15] And whether or not it's actually a problem, I think it's a superpower because I'm pretty sure I have it. But yet I can – I'm very functional. I can focus on things. And as long as I tire myself out from activity, I can relax and I can concentrate on things. And I'm very interested in certain things and I can lock into them and concentrate.

[30:45] Teaching a subject I'm not that interested in. [30:48] and I was a child, if I had the wrong parents, luckily I didn't, I would be medicated. But I think that that is this ability to focus on certain things like hyper-focus was probably a function of a persistent hunter. Because if you wanted to catch an animal, you couldn't be a person that gives up quick. You had to be a person that you keep looking for tracks, you keep trying to find sign, [31:18] figure out a way like I've got keep pushing one more hour. We got 20 minutes of daylight left. I've got to figure this out. [31:25] That thing had to be in you in order to be a successful hunter. So I'm sure that that's part of it. The current picture of ADHD, I think, is quite complicated. So I have family members with ADHD. [31:41] Um, [31:41] then started on medication, they were like, oh, actually, all of a sudden, my brain works, right? Right, but that medication is Adderall, right? If I took Adderall, I would say the same fucking thing. I don't need a stimulant. But if I took a stimulant right now, I'd be like, dude, I'm so much better. So, no, but you know what happens in certain individuals with ADHD? When you give them stimulants, they calm down. They calm down, right? So I think there's a combination of multiple things. [32:11] These can be [32:13] very beneficial traits in the right settings.

[32:18] You also have to consider that we're layering on a modern environment that's like bright light at night, a whole bunch of caffeine and stimulants. Right. And yeah, of course, some of it is. [32:28] I think... [32:29] Um, [32:31] Right, the teacher is boring and... [32:33] They're just not engaged because the majority of people with ADHD can still focus on things that they're interested in focusing in. Yes. Or on. Even without any kind of medication. Yeah. But there's like a sliding scale. And I think there's a whole bunch of different reasons why for one individual they might experience symptoms of ADHD or not. So I think it's complicated. Can I ask you before you go any further than that? Can I ask you how much of that is dependent upon physical activity? Like do we study ADHD based on whether someone is physically active or not? [33:03] Because, look, if I'm not physically active, I'm a mess. Like if something happened and for some reason, like I got a court order, you're not allowed to exercise for six months or you go to jail. Like, oh, God, I would probably be a fucking complete basket case. Right. And maybe I would have full on ADHD. Maybe I wouldn't be able to concentrate on anything. My brain would be bouncing all over the place. Like how much of it is a biological requirement that your body has to release energy? Right. [33:31] So, [33:32] I think you can, I would expand that out even further than that. [33:35] because [33:37] Physical activity is a core requirement of our biology and physiology. Right. There's a nice quote by Inigo Salman-Milan, who's a well-known exercise physiologist, who says that...

[33:49] physical activity... [33:51] is... [33:52] baked into our evolutionary development, so much so that now we've had to invent exercise. [34:00] in order to, like... [34:02] like to prevent what happens when we don't move. So the lack of movement is... [34:09] a disease-causing, pro-aging disease. [34:12] So to stop you there, what if, I mean, or do they, when they treat kids with ADHD, do they take that into consideration? [34:23] So, [34:25] I'm not an ADHD researcher, so I genuinely don't know. But I would think that before you would give someone a stimulant... [34:32] Maybe track and field. [34:34] You know what I mean? Yeah. [34:36] Play badminton. Do something where you've got to run around where you're like, oh, boy, I can focus now. I think that... [34:44] That's... [34:44] Now, again, I would say that that's needed for all kids, regardless of any potential diagnosis. So, of course... [34:50] So I think that should be taken into consideration. Whether that's going to be enough for every kid. [34:58] hard to say, but... [35:00] We know that all humans require significant amounts of physical activity just for their biology to work properly. Right. So certainly if that's not being taken into account or it's not available or it's not encouraged – [35:12] There are a whole host of conditions where that's going to become a problem. Well, it just only makes sense, right? [35:16] And, I mean, this has been talked about...

[35:20] Forever. The Stoics used to talk about it. Quieting the mind. Samurais used to talk about it. Physical activity. One of the main benefits the Chinese used for Kung Fu thousands of years ago. Quieting the mind. [35:33] And the propensity that we have in the society, this – [35:38] direction of almost immediately prescribing a medication for something when it seems like what you're doing is you're dulling a biological requirement. [35:48] You're dulling the impact of this biological requirement that you're not meeting. Right. [35:53] why wouldn't we prescribe exercise first and then think about those things like, [35:59] For instance, like hormone replacement. If you have a good doctor, an ethical doctor that is working with someone and they find out you have low testosterone, one of the first things they do is adjust your diet. They say, well, you have so much food in your diet that causes inflammation. You have a very high rate of complex carbohydrates. You have a lot of sugar in your diet. You drink too much alcohol. You smoke cigarettes. Let's remove those things first. Right. [36:29] And then let's see what happens. And then you increase your protein and you start drinking water and you go, oh, look, your hormone levels are going up naturally. Well, because you're fucking poisoning yourself, right? So wouldn't you... [36:42] I mean, why don't they prescribe exercise for kids? Other than the fact that you can't make money off of it, wouldn't it be a good idea?

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[38:28] get best friends something every dog owner wants the answer to that [38:33] is yes, obviously. So try the Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. [38:41] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. [38:50] So I think that... [38:52] All kids should absolutely get... [38:55] you know, several hours ideally of movement and physical activity of different kinds every day. [39:01] Part of the problem... [39:03] It's not that... [39:05] scientists or doctors don't think that's important. [39:08] Right now... [39:10] the systems that we have make it very difficult for those things, uh, to be, to be put in place. Right. So making sure that every kid has the time and the resources to be able to exercise and like the, the right kind of people so that they know what they're doing and they're, they're supervised. Um, um, [39:28] And, you know, it's the same with, say, with [39:32] testosterone placement if your testosterone is low. [39:35] Like most, right, the primary cause or one of the most common cause of low testosterone in men is, right, that combination of metabolic disease, being sedentary, poor quality diet. We know that. [39:48] creating the systems that allow people... [39:51] to change those things. [39:53] and then supporting them to do that is really hard. Nobody has solved the behavior change problem, right? If we think about the modern environment,

[40:04] and we think about what that drives us to do and not do, [40:09] But we have all this information, right? We know how to prevent these diseases. We know how to reverse many of them. And a lot of it is driven by lifestyle and the environment. [40:19] supporting people to change those behaviors and make sure they have the resources and time to do it. [40:26] That's really hard. Nobody solved that problem yet. [40:28] Boy, that seems like a problem that's easy to solve. [40:32] It's just based on personal responsibility. No, but it's not. But if you can tell someone, this is your requirement for the day. I want you to run one mile. I want you to do 100 push-ups and 100 sit-ups and write it down. But how are you – so first of all – [40:47] But you're saying it like it's impossible. Or very, very difficult. I'm not saying it's impossible. [40:54] Those of us for whom... [40:56] This has become a part of our personality and our lives, like you and me. [41:01] Of course, you just do that. You just go for the run. You do the 100 push-ups. But for people who... [41:06] like have never had anything like this. And it's never been a part of their environment. It's never been a part of who they are. [41:14] changing that... [41:15] actually requires a ton of work and coaching, [41:20] And it's actually really difficult. It's difficult, but it's totally doable physically. It's not like I'm asking you to breathe underwater. Like people have done it, and you can draw inspiration from it. Like my friend Jelly Roll. You know Jelly Roll, the musician? Yeah. Jelly Roll was 500 pounds, and he's lost 300 pounds. And he did it with no Ozempic, no GLP-1s. He just started walking and started cutting sugar out of his diet and slowly but – not even slowly.

[41:50] over the course of just a couple of years. He shrunk to like a normal size human. It's fucking amazing. But he drew inspiration from a lot of other people. [41:59] One of them, he's good friends with my good friend Cam Haynes, who's an ultramarathon runner and endurance athlete. And so he's taken them on runs and worked out with them and helped them and just watching YouTube videos. And just all he started doing was just walking, where he couldn't walk up hills. And he would just walk around his block and walk up the hill when he didn't want to do it. And he did it. It's like it's not easy. [42:23] You can do it. You just have to start doing it. And I think the starting doing it is the most difficult. I don't think it's difficult to do it once you gather momentum because there's a – [42:35] There's a thing that happens with people when they start doing something, they get excited, and then they look forward to doing it again. As long as you don't – like you don't take a guy who's 500 pounds and say, today we're going to do 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups. We're going to do kettlebells, and then we're going to do laps around the block. You can't do it. It's not possible. Yeah. But you could just go for a walk. And then tomorrow we're going to go for a walk a little bit further. And then in two weeks we're going to double that walk. And then in three weeks we're going to incorporate some light bodyweight squats. And along the way we're going to adjust your diet. [43:05] Write these things down. Like, this is – it's not impossible. [43:10] It's just they need motivation. So I agree. It's not impossible. But, you know, I've worked with several digital health companies who are working in the behavior change space. And...

[43:21] People don't need more information. Like, they know that they need to walk more. And they know that they could eat better. And they know that they could sleep better. Right. [43:30] But... [43:31] the process of trying to, first of all, understand like, [43:34] How should I do that? What should I do that? When should I do that? And then... [43:39] Right. [43:40] some people may absolutely not have the time or the environment maybe they live somewhere where actually you know what they don't want to be walking around outside right right that's that's relatively common or [43:53] Um, [43:54] They don't have a kitchen, right? [43:56] So then how do you cook food? [43:59] How do you navigate that food environment? So I agree. I completely agree with you. All of this is doable. It's just that different people are going to need different levels of support. [44:10] to do that initially, right? Gain that momentum, understand, understand, um, how, how that feels, um, how it changes them. And right now, the majority of people don't have access to that, that kind of support. And, [44:23] I... [44:24] absolutely hope that that changes right the food environment changes so that it's much easier to change the way that you eat and that the built environment changes so it's much easier to go out and and have a walk um and and do a lot of that um so [44:39] I think we just have to consider that it's both right. There's there's an individual component, right? But there's also like a societal component where we have to make this as easy for people as possible and sort of like [44:49] Build it into their lives such as they are. Okay. So let's consider the societal aspect of it. Let's consider the – like how would you implement something? Like let's imagine that –

[45:02] You get appointed to some committee that's in charge of – [45:07] trying to facilitate this growth and improvement in people, what would you do? [45:12] Thank you. [45:13] So, [45:15] I think you need... [45:18] a few different parts to it. One, [45:21] The great part would be [45:24] So say through, if you could dramatically improve [45:28] quality and access of like education at all levels and make physical activity just be a regular part of that that has been slowly removed from many Educational curriculums around the world over time, right? So bring some of that back and it just becomes part of day-to-day life And then you would also teach people and [45:47] the skills involved in some of these, these other things. So like, [45:51] Teach people how to cook and how to do that within the bounds of what they have access to. [45:57] cultural preferences, dietary preferences, financial abilities, that kind of stuff. Right. That should be a part of a school curriculum. Yeah, absolutely. Just like you should teach kids about taxes and all these other things. And so I think if you start early on and you – [46:13] Do this with... [46:14] Um, [46:15] curiosity and skill building [46:18] Then you release people out into the world. I think that's the place to start. Because when you get out into the real world and you're working... [46:27] three jobs and you live somewhere where you don't want to go for a walk outside and like you can barely get six hours of sleep every night and you know you've got three kids that you're trying to look after.

[46:36] Saying... [46:37] "Oh hey, you should do 100 push-ups every day." That's not going to happen. Other things are going to happen that are more important. [46:44] So I think there's that part, maybe the skill building part. [46:47] then it's thinking about how people have opportunities to do those things. And then I would think about, [46:54] you know, [46:55] access to [46:57] high quality, you know, health care, psychological care, like these things that sometimes people need help that they can't get access to or it's expensive or whatever. So I think giving more of that so that they get support when they need it. [47:12] It would definitely help as well. I think one great way would be to devise a website, maybe like even a government website where – [47:22] You put in like your body weight. When was your last physical activity? What this, that, the other thing? What's your diet? And then they implement a program. [47:35] And you could follow online with a bunch of other people that are doing the same thing and post your results. Yeah. So you have a community aspect to it. You have a dedicated program that you can follow so you don't have to think about, oh, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do this. It will just tell you. Just do this. Just do this. Oh, you weigh 400 pounds. You're 39 years old. You haven't worked out in 10 years. Okay, here's day one. Yeah. And follow along. Post your weight. Post what you're eating. [48:05] and with AI,

[48:06] I mean that's one of the good things about an LLM, right? With AI, you could ask it to formulate adjustments. And you could say, okay, what nutrients should I be consuming? How much protein do I actually need? How many calories do I need? How many calories are in this and that? And how much protein? [48:26] protein do I get from 20 ounces of broccoli or whatever the fuck it is? You know what I mean? Yeah. [48:31] So – [48:32] When you look at some of the most successful... [48:35] Trials of behavior change and most of them are based around weight loss studies, right? That's that's a very typical way to do it um [48:42] when you want somebody to change... [48:45] their behavior and feel good about it. [48:48] And one of the sort of [48:50] constructors self-determination theory you've probably heard of, right? [48:54] Humans need three things. Autonomy... [48:57] um competence and relatedness so autonomy is the like i am in charge of my life and i'm in charge of my decisions so what are the things that i want to work on today right i have some choice there uh competence like how do i help somebody feel like they know what they're doing like a lot of the hurdles with um exercise or diet is like i don't know what i'm doing and like [49:19] This guy says that I need to do sprints and this guy says I need to lift weights and this guy says I need to do... [49:25] X amounts of zone two, but I like, what does that even mean? Like, do I even know what I'm supposed to do? So how do you build competence in people? And then relatedness, that's the point that you were making, right? You have a group, like you support each other. Maybe you do stuff, you do stuff together. So, um,

[49:41] One of the most successful weight loss trials of all time was called the broad study. [49:45] And one of the things they did, so they lost a lot of weight and they kept it off. And so most weight loss studies, people regain it afterwards, is they met several times a week. They did like potlucks, group activities, like they helped each other. Yeah, community. Yeah, community. The one downside of that is that there was an app, I can't remember the name of it, that tried to build that for exercise. So like you'd have these buddies and they'd be your accountability buddies. But what happened was that when people started to slip. [50:15] They left the platform much faster because they were like, I don't want my buddies to know that I'm not doing what they are supposed to be helping me do. So, yeah. [50:22] You kind of have to like build in multiple buffers and different ways to help people depending on what it is that motivates them or not. I mean we have public education, right? We have universities. We have public high schools and middle schools. Why don't we have public gyms? [50:38] I mean, how much money would it cost to have community gyms set up where you don't have to have money to join, where it's paid for by your taxes? You're not talking about something that's – [50:48] outside of, you know, like financially it wouldn't be feasible. It's not that hard to do. So I think that was the, I don't know what the financial model is now, but that was the idea of like the YMCA. Right, right, right. So like it becomes a community focus point. Like my wife grew up in North Carolina. It's like she talks about how they were down the YMCA all the time, like playing basketball. I used to have a YMCA when I lived in Boston that I used to go to. It was really cheap. They had weights. They had a track.

[51:18] They had all sorts of stuff. It was way cheaper than a regular gym. And they had classes you could take. Yeah. And there was something very similar close to where I grew up in the UK. Just like for a couple of pounds, you go do a – [51:29] Some kind of martial arts class or something. Yeah, they had that too. Does Austin even have a YMCA? [51:35] Yeah, definitely. Oh, yeah, there's one. There's like a big one downtown. I've driven past it once. Like big glass front. I don't know what it costs. How much does it cost to get into the YMCA in Austin? [51:46] Let's find that out. [51:48] I mean, that should be paid for by taxes. Yeah. Why – I mean, if we pay for all this other shit that we don't need, why don't – you know. When a big hurdle is – [51:57] Accessibility and... [51:59] One year, new progress pack, joined today. How much? [52:04] Uh... [52:06] $125 value for a year? Is that what it says? [52:09] How much does it cost? Doesn't say how much it costs. [52:11] What does it cost? Join today. How much? Click on. So the secret of most memberships for gyms, they don't list their prices online. Yeah, but it's a YMCA. Click on join today. I'm telling you, they want you to come in and say hi so they can talk to you. Oh, is that what it is? That's how everyone works. But it's probably cheaper than most. Well, why don't you put it into perplexity or something like that? How much does it cost to join a YMCA? [52:37] Here we go. [52:38] Let's guess how much you think it costs. [52:40] 20 bucks a month? [52:42] Yeah, I think it can't be much more than a Planet Fitness, right? Planet Fitness is pretty cheap. But the thing about Planet Fitness is they kind of – a lot of these big gyms, not just singling out –

[52:52] Planet Fitness, they kind of hope that you don't show up. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's the thing. You're generally looking at $40 to $80 per month, depending on age and household type. That's not too bad. Yeah, but for some people, that's a lot of money, right? $40 a month. Yeah, that's a good chunk of their food bill. Mm-hmm. [53:09] I... [53:10] There should be some sliding scale where this becomes very, very heavily subsidized. Yeah. Yeah. [53:15] Or free. Yeah. Yeah. Ideally, yeah. I mean, why wouldn't it be free? Yeah, I think it should be. Wouldn't the homeless people go in there and shower? There are. Well, I mean, I'm okay with that too. Depends on who they are. [53:25] I mean, if they shout out with some of them. You know, fucking crazy people shitting in the shower. Blue Cross Blue Shield, many health insurance plans offer gym membership through reimbursements. Discounts are programs like ActiveFit or GlobalFit. Benefits can include $20 to $400 annual reimbursements. [53:46] Some people can use their health insurance to get some of that fee covered. Okay. Well, that's nice. But the thing is, again, it's just like Planet Fitness or any of these places. [53:56] The thing is they want to recruit you, and then you go, and you're like, okay, and then you never go again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But we genuinely want people to go. That's the whole idea. Well, the thing is there's one thing for someone, and I've taken friends to gyms before that don't work out, and they're like, what do I do? They have no idea what to do. Classes. Classes is what it should be. Absolutely. It should be classes. Learn your skill. Move. Make a friend. So much amazing stuff happens in that kind of setting. Yeah.

[54:26] different classes available at the same time, right? There should be a class for people that have done nothing. [54:32] Like, okay, these are dumbbells. Yeah. This is – you can pick up a light one. I'm going to show you how to do a shoulder press. And then it should be for more advanced people, intermediate people, something. And a whole range of different skills, yoga, Zumba, Pilates, Tai Chi. Slightly different. Not dumbbell weights, but in Austin they have a bunch of public – [54:53] gym equipment. [54:55] And different parks. Playgrounds and parks. Yeah, that stuff's great. Well, New York City has a whole – look at these guys. Look at staring at each other. [55:03] Talking shit. I think one of the problems is that, well, first of all, a lot of people might just look at that and be like, what do I do with that? And then the second is that... [55:13] uh, [55:14] A lot of what we see around fitness and movement is kind of the extremes, right? They're idolized. Professional athletes, like this is what the best of the best do. And we often, we internalize this idea that that's what we need to do. And if we're not doing that, then we're not doing anything. Right. [55:31] All the data suggests that literally any type of movement above what you're doing right now is beneficial. Cardiovascular health, cognitive health, dementia risk. So I think some of it is just like letting people know. [55:43] And having people understand that it doesn't take that much to move the needle. And then when they start to do a little bit, right, you get a bit of a bug. Maybe you enjoy it. You find a thing that you enjoy. You do more of it. And so that's part of it, too. Like having people understand that it doesn't take that much.

[56:00] to really start having an impact. Yeah, and it's also for a lot of people, this is a society that really emphasizes quick fixes on things. And it's not a quick thing. You have to trust in a process. And so that has to sort of be – [56:18] People have to be educated to that. It has to be taught to you, like, this is a process. And you're on a process, you should be very excited about being on this process. It's going to be weird, because it's going to take a long time before you see any results. But that long time, like in that time period, you will eventually see results. And then you'll be excited, you'll feel better, you'll have more energy, it'll help every aspect of your life. [56:43] You just got to do it. [56:47] One of the things that I like when I talk about [56:50] movement in particular. [56:52] or exercise, and... [56:54] say cognitive function, is that you will start to see benefits relatively quickly. So, [57:01] If you – [57:02] go and do a six-second max sprint [57:04] a couple of times, right? And there were studies that show this. You will acutely, like immediately see an improvement in cognitive function. Better blood flow to the brain. You've created arousal, which is really important for focus and attention. If you go for a walk outside, [57:20] Right. [57:22] you will sleep better that night. So you'll feel better the next day. And so... [57:27] Yes, you're absolutely right that [57:29] This is a lifelong thing, right? You can't just do it for a couple of months and then...

[57:34] hope that it's going to translate to benefits for decades to come. But you can see immediate benefits if you start to do some of this stuff and you can feel it very quickly. So I think that [57:43] That's going to be important because not everybody is going to – [57:49] going to feel in the position to invest in their future selves. Right. So if you start to see benefits straight away, you're more likely to keep going with it. Okay. So that's for people. We were just – I mean I'm glad we covered it, but we're essentially talking about people that don't know what to do. For people who do know what to do, you said you work with a lot of Formula One athletes. And what do you do for – like what is – [58:10] Formula One is fascinating to me. [58:13] I've been to the CODA racetrack. We're actually putting up a studio. We're going to have a studio at CODA. We're going to have a second studio at the racetrack. And the idea is to take people around the racetrack. I think it would, like, stimulate their mind and then come in and do a podcast. It would be a lot of fun. Yeah. Right? It would be like racing. Your mind would be like, woo! Uh-huh. [58:31] That is... [58:33] An incredible sport where it's fractions of a second, split-second decisions. Your ability to react has to be, like, incredibly fast. Like, have you ever seen the thing where they drop things? Oh, yeah, and you have to, like, grab them. Lewis Hamilton is, like, better than anybody. He's just fucking intense. Yeah. [58:53] What do you do with them? So you already have people that are primed, right? They're the best in the world. But they are constantly looking for an additional edge. What are you doing for them? Yeah, so there's a few things there.

[59:07] My work with Formula One drivers [59:09] Happens mainly through a company called Hintze Performance. It was founded by Hintze. H-I-N-T-E-S-A. Named after Aki Hintze, who was a Finnish orthopedic surgeon. [59:20] He worked with Haile Gabra Selassie, with Mika Hakkinen. He was a two-time Formula One world champion. [59:27] Now, this is like a big sports enterprise, and I'm their head scientist for motorsport. So that's all motorsport categories from like karting and kids up to Formula One. We work with several Formula One drivers. And we... [59:40] provide [59:42] Coaching and medical services each driver or most of the drivers have a coach right so like you know when you watch formula one there's like a [59:49] Somebody holding the umbrella, holding the helmet. [59:51] right? That's, that's usually, well, that's often one of our coaches. They're usually a strength and conditioning specialist, or they might be a physio or a nutritionist. Like, [1:00:00] They have a ton of, you know, really high level skills and they're there. [1:00:05] every day, right? They do the sleep, they do the training, like they're traveling with them the whole time, they sort of can manage as much of their life as possible. [1:00:13] And when you're thinking about [1:00:18] That level of skill... [1:00:21] The... [1:00:22] the stimulus part has taken care of itself, right? [1:00:26] one of the reasons why these guys are so good is because it's [1:00:31] all they've done. [1:00:32] Every day. [1:00:33] for [1:00:34] two plus decades, four decades if you're Lewis Hamilton or close to that.

[1:00:40] And that's slowly building these skills first in carting, then in these different formula categories, Formula 3, Formula 2, up into Formula 1. [1:00:49] And so... [1:00:51] the kinds of things that we might work on. And so like I'm helping the coaches, working with the drivers. We have like a, a, a huge team, um, you know, uh, [1:00:59] doctor who works with a bunch of Olympic athletes as well. And so it's a combination of [1:01:05] Are there any individual performance limiters? So we might do some blood tests, look at nutrient status and various other things. [1:01:12] You know, make sure they're really on top of that with their diets. [1:01:15] Um, [1:01:16] But then... [1:01:18] In that kind of world... [1:01:19] And light. [1:01:21] I'm sure you experienced this yourself. [1:01:23] everybody's got a thing for you to try or a thing for you to do, right? Like you're constantly being bombarded with the latest, greatest technology. And like this guy wants to sell you this thing. [1:01:32] So a lot of what we do is... [1:01:36] Like... [1:01:37] be really careful about the things that get added. [1:01:41] And maybe even take stuff away if we need to. [1:01:44] Like, what are we what are we trying to work on? What are we trying to build? What does this one driver need? Because they're all they're all very different. They need a difference. You know, they have different diets. They have different training programs. They have different warm up. [1:01:58] strategies for when they get in the car. [1:02:01] And so a lot of what we end up doing is focusing on the other side, right? So if you stimulate your brain, [1:02:07] It adapts. [1:02:09] when you rest and recover afterwards. So because they're

[1:02:14] essentially jet lagged nine months of the year uh rather than a different country every week that's a factor yeah that's a huge huge factor and like on top of like every race weekend they've got to go meet sponsors they've got to do media days right they're constantly moving so it's what can we do to maintain their level of performance throughout the season this is something that coaches do a ton of work in like how can we what kind of exercise and how can we do targeted [1:02:44] is how can we get as much recovery as possible? Because if we want them to adapt to all the work they're doing and come back [1:02:52] each weekend at the top of their game or as close as possible. We need to get them to rest and recover regularly. [1:02:58] and come back and do it again. So often we're not focusing on the stimulus part, [1:03:03] we might be in driver training. We might be thinking about how can we develop cognitive skills and these kinds of things. And these driver physical skills in, um, [1:03:11] In Formula One, often it's how can we get these guys to recover better? How can we get these guys to sleep better? And then that might be technology, but it might also be, you know, just like how can we nail the basics again and again and again, make sure they're getting enough time in bed, right? Especially when you're traveling a bunch, that gets really difficult. So we're often focused on the recovery side and how we track, like how do we collect those data? How do we know when something's starting to slip and get on top of it early? That's the kind of stuff we tend to focus on. So let's talk about the jet lag aspect. [1:03:41] the strategies for mitigating jet lag? Let's say if they fly in for a race, if they're going from Europe to the United States and they have to race, how many days in advance do they arrive and how do they shift their circadian rhythm and eliminate jet lag? What are the strategies?

[1:04:04] the, the, [1:04:05] The time... [1:04:07] The number of days they come before the race will depend on... [1:04:12] how long it was since the last race, plus what other things they've got going on. But it's often like two or three days, right? They'll try and get it get come in the beginning of the week, at least like Monday, Tuesday, if the race is then going to be on Sunday. And then, [1:04:25] as much as possible... [1:04:26] you might start to try and shift things earlier. So shift your... [1:04:31] light exposure so that it aligns more closely with your destination a couple of days before you travel. [1:04:37] Shift your sleep if you can shift exercise and caffeine timing again, because those things shift circadian rhythm so that so you can kind of get closer to what what you're going to do when you land. And so those are those are the probably the primary tools is exercise, light, caffeine. [1:04:57] You can use, some of them use, menotonin. [1:05:01] You can also change when you eat. So like... [1:05:06] Um, food timing is a zeitgeber. It's a fancy word for like time giver, like helps to drive circadian rhythm. So, um, often, um, [1:05:14] when you're flying... [1:05:16] They'll give you a meal that's happening like [1:05:18] in the middle of the night in the time that you're going to land, right? So often you might... [1:05:23] try and [1:05:24] avoid eating while flying and then have your next meal in time with like a normal meal timing when you land. I've heard that one of the things to help jet lag is just eliminate meals when you're flying, period. There's something about eating, even if it doesn't have anything to do with the time. Like, say, if you're flying from Los Angeles to New York, one way to eliminate jet lag, they say, is just to not eat on the flight. So six hour flight, don't eat at all.

[1:05:51] I think most of that is to do with [1:05:54] circadian circadian timing because you're usually flying at a time when you wouldn't normally eat or like you're often like they give you dinner at like 9 p.m or it's even midnight right so if you [1:06:06] But is that all it is? Because what he's explained to me is that just there's something about your body processing food when you're flying that actually exacerbates jet lag. [1:06:17] So I can't think of a... [1:06:20] Does that make sense? Other than the fact that you're obviously... [1:06:23] sat still for long periods of time, which might not normally happen at that time of day as well. I think the majority of it, certainly in terms of jet lag plans, is thinking about the timing of meals relative to circadian rhythm, because you normally break your fast at a certain time of day, have dinner at a certain time of day. So I think most of it is related to circadian timing. Okay. What about rigorous exercise? Because one of my strategies, like say if I have to fly to London or something like that, and I want to avoid jet lag, [1:06:53] the gym. That's the first thing I do. I put my stuff in the hotel room. I go right down to the gym. Yeah. No negotiation whatsoever. And I get in at least an hour. Yeah, I have to. That's a, that's a great way. That's a great way to, um, [1:07:06] to help offset some of the jet lag because you you start to tell your body or hey like even though it's [1:07:13] whatever, midnight in Austin, right? This is the time when I want to be awake. So it starts to advance the circadian phase. So exercise, some people like to do cold exposure, right? It does a similar thing, right? Increases adrenaline, increases heart rate, increases arousal, can do it with light, can do it with caffeine. And so like some combination of those things can definitely help. Okay, so there's...

[1:07:34] the sleep adjusting the sleep there's the light exposure there's exercise and food is there anything else like what what kind of supplementation is effective to mitigate that yeah so um they might use they might use melatonin um [1:07:48] One of the... [1:07:50] One of the issues that we have it's not an issue it makes perfect sense is that [1:07:57] The supplements that we use with the drivers have to be third-party tested, right? NSF are sports certified. Informed sports certified. So some of the things that we might like to try. Is that because the drivers get tested? Because the drivers get tested. And what do they ban? What's banned? Everything. It's the same as all the wider drugs. [1:08:16] It's the same. They're under wider regulations. [1:08:19] Are they allowed to use peptides? [1:08:21] Um, it's, it's, it's a gray area in general. I don't believe, I don't believe anybody does. And we certainly don't recommend it for that reason. Cause we just don't know what's in there. Are they tested for peptides? [1:08:34] So they're not tested for peptides. [1:08:36] Then take them. Well, it depends on whether there's actually a peptide that has good high-quality evidence in humans. Well, also you should get them from a real good compounding pharmacy. Make sure you're getting it from a quality source, which is the real problem with peptides today is that since they're not regulated, there's a lot of gray market. There's a lot of real bullshit corporations that are selling you stuff that's nonsense and even things that are tainted. So, yes, the main thing that you're worried about is contamination.

[1:09:06] What else have they put in there to get better supplements? Same thing as supplements. Yeah, same thing as supplements. [1:09:13] But in reality, like there aren't many peptides where I'm like, where I would say, or actually I couldn't think of any where I'm like, [1:09:21] This will have a definite... [1:09:23] benefit based on high quality studies in humans right those studies just don't exist um and so [1:09:30] Until we get to that point... [1:09:31] Plus... [1:09:32] the sort of like the grey area of the sort of legality of it. Mm-hmm. [1:09:39] we tend to focus on [1:09:41] you know, the real... [1:09:42] I mean, it's the basics, but we know that they work. But there are peptides that have shown to increase sleep and increase REM sleep. [1:09:50] Inhumans? Yes, Inhumans. I wish I could tell you because they talked about it, but I never tried it. I know Tom Segura is on it. [1:09:59] See if we can find what it is, Jamie. It's, boy, it's fucking with my head. [1:10:07] Is that what it is? I'm asking. No. Delta sleep inducing peptide? [1:10:12] I want to see the randomized control trial. I have to I'd like I can't I couldn't recommend it unless I know that it's third party tested is legal and there's a high quality trial in humans like all those things have to align the high quality. The problem with high quality studies is they take time and money. Yeah. And these aren't FDA approved. So you're not going to get those things. But that doesn't mean they don't work. And this is the problem. Is it like you could try it.

[1:10:36] And then if you show benefit like – In that setting, I can't try it. You can't? No. Well, you can't because of Formula One drivers and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. So with the way drug-free sport works, which is the governing body of the UFC drug testing, they don't allow anything, unfortunately. But there are studies that show that BPC-157 increases tissue recovery and helps you heal from – Not in humans. [1:11:02] True. But there's look the same thing with the covid vaccine. They weren't tested in humans either before they started trying them. [1:11:08] Um, [1:11:09] There were some – for the first wave of COVID-19 vaccines, there were some pretty good quality trials in humans. Right, but all it showed is that it showed an antibody. It didn't show that it – Oh, no, against hospitalizations and death in the first waves. We could argue about that because it's very sketchy. Okay. It's very sketchy data that has been disproven. I think that those – [1:11:31] I think those first waves were high quality, [1:11:34] But they didn't even say that it increased hospitalization and death. It was stopping transmission and infection, which was just a lie. So that's what they claimed. So it's all sketchy because it was based on profit. The whole thing is weird. It's a weird one. It's a weird one. [1:11:54] But we don't have to talk about that. Yeah, I can't talk about my special. Maybe it's not a good example. Yeah, yeah. [1:11:58] And there's plenty of anecdotal evidence, especially with professional athletes, with BPC-157 and TB-500 particularly, for tissue injuries, for recovering quicker from tissue injuries. So I know –

[1:12:12] I know there's anecdote. I know that people say it benefits them in the. [1:12:18] environments that I operate in, that's not enough. I understand. You're an actual doctor. [1:12:23] Dr. Tommy Wood, he's legit. I'm just a dork. I'm allowed to just say, try it. Fuck it. [1:12:30] So with drug-free sport, like with the UFC, they use Thorne supplements. That's what the UFC recommends, which are very good, third-party tested. So you have to find, whether it's pure encapsulations or some legitimate, well-proven, established company that provides you with third-party tested supplements. What supplements have been shown? Let's stick with Formula One drivers. Reaction time is critical. [1:13:00] At a very high cognitive state, right? You're thinking constantly. You're always calculating and movements. What supplements are these guys taking that benefit them? [1:13:10] So they're... [1:13:13] When you think about complex skill performance... [1:13:18] And there's a whole chapter on this in the book. The most important driver... [1:13:25] is arousal, right? [1:13:28] How aroused is your physiology? [1:13:31] And are you set up with the right level of... [1:13:35] sympathetic activation noradrenaline adrenaline cortisol to kind of get [1:13:40] the best level of performance. And don't let any one of those overwhelm the other one. This episode is brought to you by Chime. Chime is bringing something fresh to banking. J.D. Power just ranked them the number one choice for new bank accounts in America. And that's not a small thing. That means real people, millions of them are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee free, no monthly fees, no overdraft fees and thousands

[1:14:10] But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category that you actually pick yourself. [1:14:19] Your savings rate, nine times the national average. That's crazy high. Go to chime.com slash Rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for more details. [1:14:45] This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G and unlimited hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network, the perks of big wireless for half the cost. Visible isn't just a wireless plan. [1:15:15] wireless designed to keep you connected and no contract holding you back. Switch today at visible.com plan. Start at just $25 a month or get our premium visible plus pro plan and save $10 on your first month. When you use promo code Rogan and exclusive offer for podcast listeners. [1:15:38] Yeah, exactly. So the curve is bell-shaped, right? It's the Yerkes-Dodson curve named after a couple of guys who actually did studies in mice.

[1:15:47] that then translated actually surprisingly well over to humans. And so what it says is that [1:15:52] if you're sort of under aroused, [1:15:54] you're kind of disengaged, a bit lethargic, right? You're not really going to perform well. If you're over-aroused, you're sweaty, anxious, you're [1:16:01] Right. Again, you're not going to be able to sort of pay attention to the task. So there's this sweet spot at the top of the curve. You're capable of flow states, clutch states, which is where you can perform at your best. But it's still like it's hard work. And so. [1:16:15] what you're trying to do is get the guys to the top of that curve. And this, for many, involves some element of routine, right? Knowing that I've done the thing that I know that's going to make me feel good. And so it's a combination often of the things that we've already mentioned. They might use some warm-up sprints. They might use music. They might use bright light. They might use breath work. They might use cold. Certainly, if it's going to be a hot race, they might do some pre-cooling to bring down core temperature. That improves endurance during the race. [1:16:45] Plunges to Formula One bays? Yeah, yeah. So some of them have a... [1:16:50] like a cold plunge or you know you can you can fill a wheelie bin with water and ice and jump in that. It doesn't need to be that cold actually so for [1:16:59] increasing endurance performance, like 20 minutes at around 20 degrees Celsius or like 60-ish Fahrenheit, that significantly improves endurance. Is there a benefit to 20 minutes at 60 degrees Fahrenheit versus three minutes at 34 degrees?

[1:17:18] So the problem is that when you get too cold... [1:17:21] you can actually... [1:17:24] decrease cognitive performance so there's a there's a fine line when it's really cold that [1:17:29] what you want to do is you want to decrease core temperature without negatively affecting [1:17:33] cognitive function. And so that's easier to manage at slightly less cold temperatures. Because just like if you did really, really exhaustive exercise, right, you go out, [1:17:43] And so I was a rower in college. So like a 2K test on a rowing machine. Like after that, my brain doesn't work for like hours afterwards. And so like very, very cold ice baths. [1:17:54] for several minutes. For some people that can decrease cognitive function. So [1:17:59] You can find a sweet spot. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense because my mind is very bad after brutal workouts. Yeah. Yeah. Like if I have a really hard workout and I come in and do a podcast, there's a moment where I'm like, it's just not firing. Yeah. And that's perfect. And that's normal. We know that. You do very fatiguing exercise. [1:18:21] for a period of time you experience a decline in cognitive function. But a light exercise stimulates you. Exactly. So like one of the best studied exercises, [1:18:31] exercise modalities to improve cognitive function is literally just like a 20 minute jog [1:18:35] right it's like a light job exactly but you're kind of warming everything up you know increasing sympathetic activation increasing release of all those um hormones you mentioned and that increases arousal that that improves cognitive performance so they might be doing some of those things um in the car right that there'll be differing types of caffeine use um depending on sensitivity and timing are they taking it in pill form so that they could regulate it quickly or accurately rather

[1:19:05] gels some guys just like a cappuccino some might use like green tea because like the theanine in there might balance some of like the jitters that you can get with caffeine um some uh some people find creatine um stimulating or mildly stimulating so they might take creatine before they get in the car well there's been studies on creatine and cognitive performance that are really interesting particularly in the setting of sleep deprivation yeah and so when they're jet lagged um like i think that that that would make sense there are some newer um caffeine related compounds that if [1:19:35] when they're third-party tested. Some may try those, so theocrine or t-creen and parazanthine, which is a metabolite of caffeine. [1:19:47] They may have... [1:19:48] Some fewer of the like anxiety promoting high blood pressure, high heart rate effects, but maintain some of the cognitive effects, especially in combination with caffeine. So you have a little bit less caffeine plus a bit of those. They're harder to get sort of third party tested and stuff. But and some of the evidence is newer. [1:20:05] But that's looking sort of promising as another thing that people might try. You mentioned theanine, which is a nootropic. There's quite a few different ones that people enjoy. [1:20:18] Beta choline, there's a bunch of different ones. Do Formula One drivers, do they supplement with that kind of thing? So you're thinking like alpha-GPC? Yeah. So it's a choline, type of choline that's like... [1:20:32] as preferentially, uh, turn into acetylcholine. Um, and acetylcholine is really important for like focus and attention. Um, um,

[1:20:40] Some of that stuff isn't regularly used, mainly because it's hard to get... [1:20:48] a third-party tested [1:20:49] Source is it really yeah, but like most of the things that you take that there probably isn't or that anybody would take that there might not be a An NSF for sport a certified version. There's very few companies that do that routinely for all their supplements. God you'd think that that would be a [1:21:04] really accessible because nootropics are so common now. So... [1:21:10] So there's that, plus there's the... [1:21:13] um, [1:21:14] When we're working with different drivers, they each have very unique needs. [1:21:18] It's a combination of what do I think is really going to move the needle? [1:21:24] and not overcorrect. I think most coaches I've spoken to in Formula One have a story where their driver... [1:21:30] had three espressos before it got in the car and then he overcooked the first corner. Right. So it's a really tricky balance of trying to make sure that they can [1:21:38] Um... [1:21:39] systematically get in the zone to perform well in the car without sort of pushing them too far over the other side. And so that's where supplements become trickier because... [1:21:50] it's very easy to down-regulate [1:21:52] If you've overcooked it, [1:21:54] um through some of those physiological means right i can do some breath work or something to kind of calm myself down but if i've like stuffed myself full of caffeine it's right it's it's going to be hard to like come back from that and then you sort of step in the car and it could cause some issues so we tend to focus on some of the physiological stuff and then maybe a little bit of supplementation um because that seems to be the the sort of like best balance across those different needs well it seems like formula one would be a great place to develop a framework for this because

[1:22:24] It's such a massive sport. And you would think that they would have that dialed in. Like, you're 168 pounds. This is when you woke up. This is what you need right now. You need this much protein, this much this. Stop eating X amount of hours before the race. So... [1:22:41] Yes. Um... [1:22:43] We do a lot of that, but it's different for each guy, and nobody wants to share what they've got. [1:22:53] Your biggest rival is your teammate in many respects, right? Because that's the only guy you can go up against truly head-to-head because you're in the same car. Right. So... [1:23:01] Yeah, a lot of what we do... [1:23:03] We have to silo within the driver. This is the stuff that works for this guy, and I can't use that. [1:23:09] to help, [1:23:10] This guy, right? That's one reason why Hintzer... They don't share information. Yeah. And that's one reason why Hintzer has been very successful as a company is because they've been... [1:23:20] we're very good at walling this stuff off. Like, we know what's good for this guy. We know what's good for this guy. And we sort of leave those separate because... [1:23:28] Different frameworks, different approaches might be needed. Well, it's such an extreme example because any little deviation that you wouldn't normally feel in everyday life could be disastrous in a Formula One race. [1:23:43] different things to stimulate cognitive function, like playing chess or doing – is there anything that those guys engage in specifically to improve the way they think? Yeah.

[1:23:58] Again, it depends a little from driver to driver. [1:24:04] A lot of them... [1:24:06] Like play some kind of video games. [1:24:08] which actually have some interesting evidence to support them in terms of improving cognitive function. I think for them, though... [1:24:16] A lot of that is... [1:24:19] It's almost like relaxation. When you drive a Formula One car for a living, [1:24:23] playing a video game isn't necessarily as challenging. [1:24:31] a lot of it tends to be very... [1:24:33] car car focus rather get tons of time in the simulator like during the season they get a lot of time in the car [1:24:40] So there's nothing that like consistently would work or that everybody does. I think a lot of where the cognitive training side comes from. [1:24:49] is during driver development, right? How can we get more, [1:24:53] sports specific or sports supporting sports [1:24:58] cognitive challenges, [1:25:00] in younger drivers as they're developing. So we might use some cognitive training tools, and some other things to try and support [1:25:07] some of those development processes because by the time they were at the top um [1:25:12] especially if you want to maintain it, [1:25:14] The main thing that you need to do is... [1:25:17] obviously maintain those driving skills, which you'll get through like the day-to-day aspects of the job. Plus then it's really continually paying attention to sustained physical health, physical performance, um, especially because of the like, um,

[1:25:31] Arduous schedules and all that kind of stuff so so often again that they're focusing on the other areas because they know that will help them stay at a high level for longer. So they're focused on recovery from all the unavoidable aspects that are going to mitigate your performance. [1:25:44] Yeah, yeah, exactly. So sleep, some of them use different meditation or breath work or other devices just to kind of help. [1:25:56] Maybe you gamify it slightly or you make it a slightly more enjoyable experience. It's easier to do, easier to switch off if you're doing... [1:26:03] things related sort of like [1:26:04] vibration and that kind of stuff. You mean like pressure plates? Like those standing on things? Yeah, so like... Shaky plates? No, there's... Turbosonic? [1:26:15] There's a chair... [1:26:18] that that's that some guys use and i mean this is used in a ton of different sports and like in other military groups as well called the shift wave have you heard of this yeah i have one yeah yeah so some of the guys some of the guys have a shift wave um it just kind of depends on what works well for them in terms of like allowing them to down regulate allowing them to kind of sleep sleep better [1:26:36] And again, we sort of often focus on the more sort of physiological environmental side rather than, [1:26:41] you know, trying to, uh, throw a bunch of supplements on it. Well, it seems like that's a great place to study formula one drivers because you're dealing with these like fine lines. There's this tiny differential between success and failure. Yeah. [1:26:55] Yeah, and the... [1:26:57] One of the interesting things is that... [1:26:59] the real performance stuff is kind of siloed within the team. So then, right, because that's related to performance in the car, and that's sensitive information. So a lot of the time we're kind of thinking about

[1:27:12] And this actually, across most sports... [1:27:17] The the best predictor of performance is is subjective well-being. How does the athlete feel? How? And so, like, there are tons of studies even like coming out now. Like you compare that to blood tests and HIV and all this other kind of stuff, how they feel. [1:27:31] Am I tired? Am I achy? Do I feel alert? You know, all that kind of stuff that seems to predict performance really well. So how can we. [1:27:40] And better than some of those other things. [1:27:44] The best is a combination as much as possible. [1:27:47] So we do a lot of work aggregating data. [1:27:51] But then really the rest of the time is... [1:27:53] How can I make sure this guy feels good every day? [1:27:56] Right. And feels confident when he gets in the car. And so then we have psychologists. They're a big part of that. Plus, like keeping an eye on their body and all that, you know, all those sort of things to sort of put them in the best place. [1:28:05] spot possible when they get in the car. Do you coach them to avoid toxic relationships? I'm not sure if anybody's ever gotten into that. For fighters, it is like one of the number one predictors of poor success in a competition. I've seen it over and over again. Guys with horrible relationships, you know, whoever's fault it is, both fault, both parties, whatever it is. But those are the ones like when they have like really bad relationships. Like there was this one guy that I know. [1:28:34] That was a really high performer, very good fighter, but he had this crazy girlfriend and she required so much so much attention that it would drive her nuts when he was getting ready for a fight because he was spending all his time concentrating on the fight. And it would peak literally the night before the fight. Like the relationship was so toxic. She would always start fights and all the coaches knew it. She would start fights after he weighed in.

[1:28:59] Because he was so locked in on the fight the next day that he wasn't paying attention to her. Yeah. So she would storm out of the hotel room and go down to the bar by herself, and he would freak out, and he would always wind up performing poorly. Yeah. [1:29:11] I... [1:29:12] At least I personally haven't seen the evidence of that in that in that world. I will say that fighters are kind of crazy, though. It's a it's a it's an interesting group to study because it's a very bizarre activity to begin with. You know, it's the way I describe it is high level problem solving with dire physical consequences. Yeah. And although you could say that Formula One is similar in that respect. Right. Very similar. The. [1:29:39] There are certainly a lot of drivers come into the sport. [1:29:43] with uh is often driven by family relationships [1:29:46] So I think that that may be an influence sometimes. Overbearing parents are another one. Coaches, overbearing father coaches. Yeah, because they come in with this long history of what got them there. So maybe that affects some of them. I'm not sure. What are the most challenging athletes? I assume you've dealt with a bunch of different athletes from various sports. What are the most challenging ones to deal with? [1:30:11] The... [1:30:14] I think the ones that I found most challenging [1:30:18] uh... [1:30:21] It's usually because they're pulled in so many different directions. [1:30:24] that [1:30:26] It's... [1:30:27] It becomes... [1:30:29] difficult for them to like really engage in the things that

[1:30:32] we know is going to help them [1:30:34] perform long term. And so as [1:30:38] And like I have friends who work in the NBA for instance where I think this is amplified even more right you have [1:30:45] teenage millionaires who can literally do whatever they want, right? But you have to like keep them on, on task. And we see that in a lot of professional sports. And so, um, [1:30:54] It's that kind of stuff. Is what's... [1:30:57] distracting them [1:30:59] What are the other things that they're doing that's stopping them from being able to engage in these processes? [1:31:05] And so... [1:31:07] you can have like really good conversations and put together really good plans. And like in the moment they're really engaged and they're interested in the right. They want to do well, right. This is their job and they love it. [1:31:19] But... [1:31:19] Thank you. [1:31:20] when other things start to come into play... [1:31:23] Outside of that conversation, [1:31:25] They don't engage with things. They don't do it. They don't see the results that they want. They get demotivated. But it's usually because like, [1:31:32] other things in their life right could be like the toxic relationships but it tends to be other other distractors they kind of um pull them away from that that sort of like core goal unfortunately success is a big one right because the motivation to succeed in the first place is you want financial gain you want recognition you want all these things that you're chasing after and then once you get them now what yeah [1:31:55] Yeah, yeah. And some... [1:31:58] Some people maintain dedication to the craft. This is the thing that I love and I want to do it every day and...

[1:32:06] The longer you do it, the more you have to take care of the little details. Early on in your career... [1:32:12] You can train however you want, eat however you want. If you have a certain set of skills and training up to that point, you'll do pretty well. But you want to sustain that for a very long period of time. It requires an increasing amount of dedication to the... [1:32:28] to the other areas of your life to make sure that you can still do that. And I think sometimes people just aren't honest with themselves in terms of, [1:32:35] what they really want to do or what they're going to spend their time doing. So that's the most frustrating thing is when – [1:32:43] You sort of... You hear one thing, but you see another thing because of, like... [1:32:47] the other areas of life that are taking over. So what do you do if you have an athlete, like say an NBA athlete, and you see all this talent, all this potential, but then you notice that they're getting pulled in all these different directions? Maybe they're just like spending money all the time and partying and hanging out with girls. And how do you get them back on track? So... [1:33:10] I don't do a ton of work in MBA. When I intersect with that, I'm generally advising on the data portion rather than interacting with the human. So I don't have good tips. But luckily, because I've never had to deal with that, because I imagine it's quite... [1:33:26] frustrating so what athletes do you deal with like what sports so formula one is that is the one where i primarily i'm like face to face with athletes in in other professional sports i'm like an advisor to the team that works with them on like a data health nutrition okay got it got it got it and when you compare notes what are the differences between like dealing with formula one athletes versus dealing with like nfl or nba or

[1:33:49] Baseball. [1:33:51] But all the stuff comes down to... [1:33:53] uh, [1:33:55] Differences in... [1:33:56] travel schedule and training, and the ability to... [1:34:00] to capture data. [1:34:02] for instance so data capture in Formula One is really hard. [1:34:05] because of the [1:34:07] the types of travel and... [1:34:09] You don't get to aggregate across a team, whereas you're part of a big team. There's several people you can kind of work. [1:34:15] You work with an aggregate data across to kind of understand what's happening with with individuals as well as like overall. But I think that Formula One is unique because. [1:34:29] It's so individual. [1:34:30] in terms of [1:34:32] Each driver has their one specific team. [1:34:36] And it's often very difficult to capture some of the data that we might want to capture, like getting blood tests on guys who are... [1:34:42] In a plane. [1:34:44] every other day, right? Right. Really difficult. Whereas other places where they have a home base and this kind of stuff as usual, you might be... [1:34:51] be able to get at that better um so i think that's maybe one of the biggest differences is the travel travel schedule and how easy or not it is to like capture and aggregate data this episode is brought to you by blinds.com texas summers don't mess around with patio surfaces easily reaching 150 degrees hot enough to make your backyard feel like a punishment and if your windows are bare indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees get ahead of it with custom solar shades

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[1:36:51] your new system by visiting simplisafe.com slash rogan that's half off at simplisafe.com slash rogan there's no safe like simplisafe when when you're working with these formula one athletes like how much are you changing the methods that you use like year to year [1:37:11] Um... [1:37:13] It will depend on... [1:37:17] whether, I mean my job is to stay on top of the latest research, right? So what [1:37:22] What's come out recently that... [1:37:24] we think will meaningfully move the needle. [1:37:27] In reality... [1:37:29] I think this is the case in... [1:37:32] the majority of professional sports that I've interacted with. [1:37:36] The main thing is getting... [1:37:40] the boring basics done. [1:37:42] consistently. [1:37:43] And like again and again and again, like we know that's... [1:37:46] foundational to sustain performance. And yeah, like the [1:37:51] But some of the tools and technology for recovery and some of the supplements, especially if you're trying to address nutrient insufficiencies based on an adequate diet, which is also very common, right, those things do make a difference. [1:38:08] Um, but, [1:38:10] the [1:38:11] the main struggle, at least from the guys that I regularly see, is [1:38:17] having... [1:38:18] an environment and framework that allows them to keep doing that stuff like

[1:38:22] Stay on top of a specific training program or stay consistent with a certain sleep routine that allows them to sleep well. Those are the things that make the biggest difference. [1:38:32] And so it's, [1:38:33] That's where we tend to focus. And then maybe every year or so, we're constantly improving our data capture and our data analysis. We're constantly... [1:38:43] Um, [1:38:44] you know, trying to improve sort of the support processes, because we know that with the better support, [1:38:51] we can make sure they're more likely to do the stuff that's going to make a big difference. And then maybe every sort of like year or two, there's a new thing that comes in. And we're like, oh, yeah, we're fairly confident. This is low risk, high potential benefit. [1:39:03] it's not going to take a ton of their time. Right. That's another thing is... [1:39:07] when I first, uh, when I first walked into the paddock in, in, it was here in Austin. That was the first time I went to Formula One to like start working with these guys. I like, [1:39:17] I showed up and I'm like, I've got like a, I've got like a hundred things that these guys are going to love. It's going to be really important. It's going to revolutionize everything. And then you speak to like a coach for the first time. They're like, [1:39:27] We've got time for maybe one thing, and you better be... [1:39:31] Really confident that this thing is gonna make a difference right Ross. You've wasted our time. So how do you decide? [1:39:37] So a little bit I [1:39:40] Of it is of course it's gonna be some trial and error and it does depend on the [1:39:46] But the error is like consequences are huge. Yeah. And you just have to acknowledge that up front. And the error is biggest when you're telling some guy to do something before he gets in the car.

[1:39:56] Because that's going to immediately have an effect. So there are ways to offset some of that. They have practice periods, practice periods. [1:40:05] and so it's like right now it's a new generation of cars for this season um nobody's driven them before they're getting more extended uh track time to practice uh practice with them so like that might be a time when you could try a new supplement or something before you get in the car because it's a low it's a much lower risk setting uh you're not racing there's not 19 other guys or now 21 other guys trying to trying to get past you um and then right so that so some [1:40:35] you [1:40:35] You just have to be really confident that you know what problem you're trying to solve and that it's an important problem. [1:40:40] Right. So I've I've worked with [1:40:44] coaches and their driver where like reaction time was a very specific thing like off the line we we think we need x amount improvement so then it's a combination of practice maybe tinkering with some supplements maybe tinkering with some of that arousal stuff that we talked about earlier [1:41:00] Um... [1:41:01] So you need to make sure it's an important problem. Then you need to think about what's the hierarchy of things that [1:41:06] have the highest... [1:41:07] likelihood of benefit and the lowest risk and then sort of work your way through it. And I realize that this is all kind of in the abstract because it just like really depends on the problem that's in front of you. What about the psychology aspect of it? I mean, this is a very controversial aspect of mixed martial arts in particular.

[1:41:27] Because there's kind of two schools of thought. There's – like I have a good friend who's a coach that recently told me he's not working with any fighters anymore that need a mental coach. [1:41:39] And I said, why? And he's like, you just can't count on them. He goes, they're just too fragile. They need a mental coach. He goes, I want a motherfucker who just knows that this is what he's supposed to be doing and just go out and do it. Yeah. I'm like, boy, but that kind of limits your athletes, right? [1:41:54] Do you... [1:41:55] Do you think that there's benefit in mental coaching or do you think like to reach a championship level, there's an inherent mindset that you must have going into that? And you can improve upon that. But if you do not have that mindset – [1:42:11] you're not going to be successful. [1:42:13] This is my friend's ID. I don't want to call him out because I know who the athletes he works with. Yeah, yeah. But he recently had a bad result with one of his athletes. He's like, I'm done. [1:42:22] No more guys who need mental coaches. I want killers. [1:42:27] You're going to need some element of a mindset to get to that level to begin with. [1:42:32] Right? [1:42:33] But... [1:42:36] We... [1:42:37] have psychologists on our team. [1:42:39] Who... [1:42:40] work with the drivers regularly. Other drivers who aren't [1:42:44] you know, working with us, [1:42:46] bring in sports psychologists very regularly collaborate with these psychologists do you talk to them and get their notes yeah yeah so we have what are common issues [1:42:55] the

[1:42:59] Again, it's so dependent on the individual person. [1:43:03] But it... [1:43:06] But it's also very common across all athletes, right? So it's like overcoming failure... [1:43:11] or fear of failure or... [1:43:15] you'd [1:43:16] Maybe it's dealing with difficult relationships, which for various reasons that they can experience. [1:43:23] And... [1:43:24] Then it's how... [1:43:26] their inherent thought processes when that happens. So we know that [1:43:29] the most resilient athletes. [1:43:32] are those that tend to be [1:43:34] self-compassionate. [1:43:36] Right. So like interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. I would have thought the opposite. Yeah. And so there's this idea, right, that, right, you want killers, you want. [1:43:44] Um... [1:43:45] People hard on themselves. The guys who are hard on themselves. Yeah. For sustained – and so this is looking across like as broad as possible across sport. Those who are most – [1:43:55] Um, [1:43:56] Most successful... [1:43:58] Most often, of course, there's going to be there's going to be the the killer who's just like hard himself and gets the job done. Of course. Right. But. [1:44:05] these elements of self-compassion that include... [1:44:08] things like mindfulness like [1:44:11] thinking about [1:44:12] the world and understanding it and about their place in it and um [1:44:16] common humanity, which is like treating themselves as they would treat other people and acknowledging that we all make mistakes and stuff always happens, but I can overcome this. I know this happened to me before. Like I've sucked. I've crashed. I've done something wrong. And hey, I overcame it. And now I'm succeeding again. Those.

[1:44:35] mental skills. [1:44:37] uh... [1:44:38] most common amongst the high-level people. [1:44:41] high level athletes. So I give an example. This is not... I don't know him. But like, Roger Federer has a very famous quote, right? He gave it some... [1:44:51] like graduation address or something. [1:44:53] where he says that [1:44:56] across his career... [1:44:58] He only won 54% of his points on court. [1:45:01] So that means that 46% of points he lost. [1:45:06] So that means that every time he makes a mistake, every unforced error, he has to come back and be like, [1:45:12] Hey, dude, like you've got this and I know I can do this and I and that's the point that he's making in this address and It's those kinds of mental skills that seem to be most important. So when I [1:45:23] you've had a history of beating yourself up and being hard on yourself. And that's kind of gotten you to that point. [1:45:30] there will often be a stage where there's so much accumulated pressure or stress or failure that, [1:45:37] that just working harder [1:45:39] And being hard on yourself isn't going to get you past it. [1:45:44] Athletes who are successful for a long period of time tend to have those other abilities to like think about the bigger picture and [1:45:50] understand what they've overcome previously, treat themselves more like they would treat others. And they seem to be the ones who overcome failure and then continue to succeed. I'm really into professional pool. I play pool and I follow a lot of professional pool players. And there's a trait amongst the elite pool players that's pretty consistent for the ones that are successful and win tournaments. It's the ability to let a bad shot go.

[1:46:20] They slump in their chair. They start running their fingers through their hair. They fucking they throw their head back. They take a deep breath and then they're carrying that with them when they go out to make a shot again. And for a high level pool player. [1:46:34] So there's performance scores and a really high TPA performance score is like I think the best in the world right now is Joshua Filler, who's this guy from Germany. He's arguably, if not the best, one of the top two or three guys in the world. His performance score is about I think it's like. [1:46:57] 850 out of 1,000. So that means if he makes 1,000 shots, he's going to make 850 of those shots, which is very elite. Yeah. So you've got to think, even the best, because they're playing on four-inch pockets, but this guy never gets upset. When he misses, he just sits down, and he's got a dead look on his face. The Chinese Taipei players are the best at it. I don't know how they coach them over there. So they're some of the best in the world, the Chinese Taipei players. So these guys from Taiwan, they have no expression. [1:47:27] When they miss a shot, they just go and sit down. Yeah. And maybe they'll smile, but they never get upset. Yeah. Whereas a lot of the American players, they get fucking pissed off and go, oh, you see it. Some of the European players do the same thing. And those guys, they fall off a cliff. Yeah. Their performance is elite. They'll make a couple of bad shots, and then the match goes downhill, and they wind up getting steamrolled. Yeah. [1:47:49] I think you can, there's other stuff going on. You can think about it in terms of that, like, arousal curve we talked about earlier, right?

[1:47:55] As you get... [1:47:56] stressed and like worked up about a missed shot you're pushing yourself further and further away from the level of arousal yes for performance yes and [1:48:06] And dwelling on failure. Right, and then you're thinking about what happened previously rather than the shot that comes next. Well, that's one of the most important things about a shot, because even if your mechanics are good, if you think you're going to miss, you're going to miss. Yeah. It's weird. Yeah. It's a weird thing, because you know what to do, you know how to do it. But if you think, fuck, I can't miss this shot, you're going to miss. Yeah. Like, nine times out of ten, it's very weird. [1:48:36] because most of them, when they get to an elite level, have all the skills. It's a mental thing. It's ability to perform under pressure because it's fine motor skills. [1:48:49] I mean, across every different aspect of cognitive performance, well-being, [1:48:55] there's, [1:48:57] again and again you see that [1:49:00] Psychology. [1:49:01] drives physiology and drives performance. You can measure these things... [1:49:07] as you think them, as they then change physiology, which then alters how you perform. So... [1:49:13] So, I mean, this is a very, very long answer to your question of... [1:49:18] Like is is like psychology and mental skills important? Absolutely. Because I think that's going to be foundational to whether you can even achieve those high levels of performance.

[1:49:29] Everybody needs help occasionally. And that's perfectly normal. And different people are going to need different [1:49:36] tools and different skill sets so different psychologists are going to provide you know different things for them to do so like yes that's always something that we have [1:49:43] on hand as needed as part of the team because that's going to be really important. Yeah, the mind controls [1:49:50] so much of what you do in life, even if you have skills. And that's something that elite performers either figure out or don't, right? They either never achieve their true potential because they keep tripping over themselves, or they go, okay, this is not helping me. It's only hurting me. I keep allowing myself to spiral into this same sort of mental state, and I have to find a method. [1:50:20] what tools and what, what, what, what, [1:50:24] What sort of strategies do they give these – [1:50:27] athletes to abandon negative thinking. Yeah. [1:50:32] There are a few different ways to approach it. And again... [1:50:36] like don't want to pretend I'm a psychologist, right? We have other people with these skills for a reason. [1:50:43] But... [1:50:44] I think a lot of what... [1:50:46] Um... [1:50:47] becomes important. [1:50:49] again, is thinking about the causes... [1:50:54] of [1:50:55] Um, [1:50:56] Maybe initially the causes of mistakes, and then...

[1:51:00] and the causes of stress and why... [1:51:03] that may or may not be beneficial in the way that you can leverage it. So there's a lot of research on... [1:51:09] understanding... [1:51:11] that [1:51:12] stress responses are there to divert resources to something that matters and something that either requires your attention or adaptation to it, right? [1:51:22] understanding that actually stress in the moment in that kind of moment is a good thing [1:51:27] And you want to you want to leverage it rather than be scared of it. So and we know that people who are trained in this mindset. So this is work by Alia Kram at Stanford. The stress is enhancing mindset also like predicts how well. Um. [1:51:45] Navy SEALs do during training, like how much they sort of like appreciate that stress response is important. This is me. [1:51:51] rising to the occasion. [1:51:53] Um, [1:51:54] You still get stressed, where you still can measure stress hormones. That still happens. But you release other things that help to... [1:52:02] also... [1:52:03] like counteract that and drive adaptation. And, [1:52:07] it results in better decision-making when stressed. So reframing some of these responses can be important, as well as then thinking about after a mistake happened, [1:52:18] Thinking about other examples of times when you did that and you overcame it or... [1:52:22] you know, having like these different parts of [1:52:25] understanding what it is to be a human even when you're performing at an elite level maybe some of it is building in

[1:52:34] routines so that you feel [1:52:37] confident in a given situation, right? Like these are the things that I do [1:52:42] And when I do these things, I know I'm going to perform well. That can be a double edged sword for some people because and I think this we see this a lot of this in the in the world of sort of like health optimisation. [1:52:53] we assume that [1:52:55] we need to do all these things in order to perform well. [1:52:57] And so then if those things don't happen, we think we won't perform well. Right. So that's another way for us to get in our way, our own way. So you kind of have to balance that depending on the individual. And then some of it can be. [1:53:08] Right, right. [1:53:10] In the moment, right, so you're one of those pool players, right? [1:53:14] And you're getting increasingly frustrated because you're not making your shots. [1:53:17] Thank you. [1:53:18] It's almost impossible to think your way out of that, right? [1:53:22] Your brain is too busy being dunked in adrenaline to make good decisions. So that's where you might have tools like... [1:53:30] leveraging your physiology properly [1:53:32] Breathwork. [1:53:33] closing your eyes, visualization, [1:53:37] Those things sort of work from the bottom up to kind of help your mind get a grip and like get back in the game. So it's a whole bunch of different things depending on what you might need. Is it I need to regulate myself in the moment? Is it. [1:53:52] How do I set myself up for success through a series of... And it could be like, what's my warm-up? What's my... [1:54:00] What am I thinking through? What am I visualizing before I perform? Or is it tools to kind of deal with the processes of failure afterwards? And I would also think that even just the knowledge that these high stress situations where you do encounter failure can produce a result inside the mind that can be beneficial if harnessed. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And so one of the ways that this is taught to

[1:54:26] other people, right, not just athletes, is like, think about all the people who've performed under significant stress, right? This is what the human mind and human body is capable of. If only we allow it. [1:54:39] to do to do right right that's what's important right is like I think inspiration is one of the most powerful fuels that we can use and inspiration from other people's examples is one of the best versions of that yeah because I think there was a young kid who recently broke the world record of the mile did you see that oh yeah yeah I think 16 it was 340 something 348 yeah 348 which is nuts [1:55:08] Which is nuts. We didn't think that people can get below four minutes before. This 16-year-old kid hits 348. And I immediately thought, wow, through the inspiration of this kid being able to do this, who's going to break 340 now? [1:55:28] in the run-up to the race, he was like, he hadn't raced a bunch recently. He, um, this was just going to be like a, just like going to be a run out. He was just like going to, you know, loosen his legs up, get back in the, in the, into, into the race. And so like in that situation, he's put no pressure on himself, right? All the, all the brakes are off, like whatever, he's got nothing to lose. And so like in that situation, right? [1:55:50] Like incredible performances are possible. And it's crazy because that's only the 11th fastest indoor mile. It says here. I thought it was the fastest ever, but it's the fastest ever for under 18. Yeah, under 18 record, yeah. So crazy. That's so fast to run a mile.

[1:56:06] I mean, I'm not sure I could go that fast. [1:56:09] full stop ever like for any period of time yeah 20 feet yeah exactly i can't run that fast it's kind of amazing but um i mean this is one of the things we talk about all the time with mixed martial arts athletes in particular is that today is such an amazing time for them because there's so much access to video so you can watch all these performances by all these elite athletes and then it raises your personal standards because you're mirroring what these people [1:56:39] of doing and in your head you have a very high standard because you've seen it and that that inspires people to become better and so the athletes that we're seeing today i i say all the time that [1:56:51] martial arts has evolved more in the last 30 years than it has in the last 30,000 years. And it's true. And it's true just based on my own personal experience of seeing athletes from 1997, when I first started working with the UFC, to 2026. It's a completely different standard. They're so much better. They're so much more elite. They have so much more balance. They have so much more balance in terms of their game is balanced, striking, grappling, wrestling, all of it together. [1:57:21] It's amazing because they're walking on the foundation that was set by the athletes before them. [1:57:28] Uh... [1:57:29] So it's the mind recognizing what's possible. Absolutely. Or... [1:57:34] not thinking that something is impossible, right? It's the opposite too. And maybe that's more of it, right? It's the same with Roger Bannister and the four minute mile, right? As soon as he did it, everybody,

[1:57:43] Not everybody, but lots of people started to do it. Well, and also the ignorance of youth, which is why young athletes are so damn good sometimes. Yeah, because they don't worry about their own limitations. And they also don't have mortgages. They don't have wives. They don't have kids. They don't have bills. But this is also the thing is, right, if we think about... [1:57:59] these traits that we'd maybe like to carry over that help us perform or maintain performance for long periods of time later in life. [1:58:09] curiosity [1:58:11] not worrying about like these burdens, continuing to engage in these things that challenge ourselves, that kids just like readily do, right? The brain is exploring and trying to learn. I think we need more of that. [1:58:21] as adults. But when you think about [1:58:25] The standard being set or... [1:58:27] Thinking that things on [1:58:29] impossible there's there's two parts that one yes that that that's a huge aspect of achieving higher and higher levels of athletic performance but for for many of us like us regular people um [1:58:42] When you spend a lot of time seeing other people performing so much better than you, [1:58:47] it can have the opposite effect. I think this is something that we see on social media. There's some really interesting... [1:58:54] There's some really interesting studies on... [1:58:56] Social rank. [1:58:58] Right. So we are always trying to see where we rank in the world compared to others. Right. It's the part of us like being social beings. [1:59:04] And so... [1:59:05] If... [1:59:06] You spend all day looking at people who are... [1:59:09] richer, more beautiful, more jacked than you are. [1:59:13] internally you demote yourself

[1:59:15] You give yourself a lower social rank and that creates a social stress that triggers genuine stress responses. Right. Increased sympathetic activation, activation of some like inflammatory process in the body. Very similar to if you are socially socially isolated. So for some people who. [1:59:33] Have the... [1:59:35] are on a trajectory to improve their performance because they're elite athletes and they're seeing these other guys do it. They're like, oh, yeah, I can do that. [1:59:42] Right. [1:59:43] That's really beneficial. But in like the general world, the rest of us, when we spend so much time seeing other people do other things better than us, it can almost have the opposite effect. [1:59:51] But not with everybody. No. That's the thing. That's the difference between an athlete and someone who is – [2:00:01] intimidated by other people's performances instead of being inspired. Yeah. So, but, but that's, that's what I mean is that when, when you're one type of, when you're an athlete and you're seeing other guys like you do this thing, right? That's like, Oh yeah, that creates a bar you want to try and hit. But, [2:00:19] That same thing is very different out for the out for the rest of us based on like seeing how we compare to others. Well, particularly in things you can't control, like your looks or your wealth. Yeah. But wealth in some ways you achieve. But your mind doesn't interpret it that way. Right. You don't you don't immediately rationally think. [2:00:39] Well, I can never be that. Right. I'm never going to look like Brad Pitt. Right. Right. You can't you can't apply that sort of like rational thinking to it. Well, then even worse for young girls, because a lot of them are getting surgery because they know that some girls have radically improved their looks through surgery. And so they think like this is the solution to everything. And I just need to get a nose job and a chin job and a this and a that. Which, of course, never. No.

[2:01:09] It's – Jonathan Haidt wrote a great book about it called The Coddling of the American Mind about the impact of social media and particularly on young girls. Yeah. [2:01:17] It's really bad. So he did write Coddling of the American Mind. That was more about changes in academia. [2:01:25] Academia and helicopter parenting and safety is the anxious generation was the one about oh, that's right Yeah, that's right and that aspect of it of comparing yourself to other girls is particularly devastating It's like there's you see when the impact of social media when social media gets introduced into the world immediately you see more self-harm suicidal ideation all these different things increase and [2:01:50] Whereas like – so those same stressors, if you were in a position like an athlete and you're a competitive athlete and you see someone who is elite, you would be inspired. But you feel – [2:02:02] Helpless to achieve these goals that you know you like you can't get any taller you can't get any better looking you can't look it's just this is what you got. Yeah, and then you see these with and then you see people that are using filters. So it's not even what they really look like. Yes, I think that's why there's this. It's interesting that. [2:02:23] very similar... [2:02:25] exposures depending on who you are and what you're [2:02:29] trying to achieve and what you have the ability to achieve can have dramatically different effects on mental and other well-being. Right. And [2:02:38] But – [2:02:39] You'd imagine that for competitive athletes, you've already developed a certain amount of resilience already. You already have a competitive spirit, and you are working towards a thing that's a high level of achievement in something you're already doing.

[2:02:53] So seeing a Michael Jordan, seeing a LeBron James, if you're a basketball player, you would be inspired. [2:03:00] And instead of being like, I'll never be as good as that guy. You'd be like, fuck, I want to be as good as that guy. What do I have to do? Well, Kobe Bryant worked out every day and he did this and he did that. So I'm going to do that. [2:03:10] This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Lots of places can accidentally expose you to identity theft. Doctors' offices, online retailers, insurance companies, the list goes on. Thankfully, LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone could do on their own. LifeLock keeps an eye on your personal information, credit applications, finances, and more. [2:03:40] like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, they'll alert you right away, all through text, phone, email, or the LifeLock app. Even better, alerts are automatically activated the moment you become a LifeLock member. No extra work on your part. Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Don't wait. Join LifeLock now. Visit LifeLock.com slash J-R-E and save up to 30% your first year. [2:04:10] slash J-R-E for 30% off. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Manscaped. Wondering what to get your dad on Father's Day? [2:04:22] The Beard and Dome Bundle from Manscaped is a really solid option. I've been using their Dome Shaver for a while now, and the thing I like about it is how easy it makes everything. You don't have to think about it. It just glides over your head, gets everything clean, no weird patches, no going over the same spot ten times. Honestly, it's so much better than anything.

[2:04:42] any of the other brands I've tried. And then there's the Beard Hedger. It's got this zoom wheel with 20 different length settings that's built right in. So if you want to get your dad something he'll actually use, the Beard and Dome bundle for Manscaped is an easy pick. Get 15% off plus free shipping with the code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free shipping [2:05:12] that... [2:05:13] Um, [2:05:14] Something else, we didn't talk about this in terms of like the... [2:05:18] the approaches of... [2:05:20] the most successful athletes is that, [2:05:23] They don't just say, I want to be like... [2:05:27] LeBron or Kobe, they say, what did he do? What can I do? So they focus on the process, right? You have to love and focus on the process because you... [2:05:39] you can't guarantee a certain outcome, right? So like, and I talk about this in the book and I give the example of the 2012 Olympics, right? Yeah. [2:05:47] The guys who came second, third and fourth ran personal best times. [2:05:52] like several other national records were set during the, during like the whole hundred meter sprint competition, all the different rounds. But like, [2:06:01] Usain Bolt ran, right? And so, like, you can be the best you've ever been and be amazing. You can run fast enough to have won a gold medal any other year, but, like,

[2:06:13] sometimes you're out of luck because Usain Bolt shows up. So you've got to focus on the process because you can't guarantee the outcome. But by focusing on the process, you're going to get much closer. Yeah, that's interesting because if you are a person trying to be the best in the world and you happen to be in the same weight class as Mike Tyson, it's going to be tough. Yeah, but I mean that's always been the case. That's the thing in championship-level fighting. [2:06:43] all the other people in that weight class [2:06:46] tend to achieve a very high level even if they never wind up being as good as Anderson Silva or whoever it is. It winds up being a very competitive contender class underneath it and much more competitive than divisions that are not being dominated by elite fighters. [2:07:06] Yeah. It's a very large book. So I know it can't just be the stuff that we've already covered. What other things do you think are in here that are important when you're talking about future proofing your mind? [2:07:20] We'll say you're looking at a dummy copy. Yeah, you just tricked me. Look at this, folks. I was saying this is a really large book. It's a fucking empty book. That's crazy. I read this. I'm like, maybe it's a trick. Yeah, you're just not paying attention enough. The book is as thick as the real one will be. I believe you. [2:07:40] That's on purpose. I've never been given a dummy copy of a book before. So does it even have writing? No writing. Good. I'm going to use this as my new joke book. New notes.

[2:07:50] Once the full thing is printed, we'll send you a real one. Okay. You did trick me, though. Thank God I didn't try to read from it. So, like, the first... [2:07:59] The first part of the book is about [2:08:02] some of the history of neuroscience and why we think about the brain the way we do and some of the limitations that's created. It's like why we think about... [2:08:11] Alzheimer's disease as just being like the accumulation of amyloid and tau proteins in the brain, which people might have heard of, right? That's what it's been boiled down to when there's actually a much bigger picture of many other things that are important. [2:08:25] Was it Alzheimer's where the amyloid plaque, where that idea was sort of… [2:08:31] proven to be a little bit bullshit? So there have been a... [2:08:35] So, uh... [2:08:37] Not really, but kind of. So there were several seminal papers. There were hoaxed, right? That were manipulated in some way, right? And this, unfortunately, is quite common where you change the figures, you manipulate these blots to make them show different things, and you kind of move them around and copy and paste, and it kind of shows what you want to show. And so for some of the seminal papers in Alzheimer's, that turned out to be the case. But it doesn't discount the fact that it's still a part of it. But people have increasingly... [2:09:06] looked away from just... [2:09:09] the accumulation of certain proteins in the brain for two reasons. One is that, [2:09:15] we had as a field, they had to create new ideas like resilience,

[2:09:22] And there's this thing called cognitive resilience, which is how much cognitive function do you maintain in the face of these proteins building up in the brain? [2:09:32] the amount of amyloid you have in your brain doesn't really predict cognitive function and cognitive decline that well. So some of that is related to other things. So we know that like exercise is an important part of that. [2:09:45] And then we know that these other things that are important as well. [2:09:50] inflammation, [2:09:51] Um... [2:09:52] other cells in the brain that become critical so like the white matter is a really critical structure in the brain it's what allows us to have really fast [2:09:59] processing speed, decision making, executive function, the function of the prefrontal cortex, all of that is kind of dependent on white matter structure. And that seems to be really related to like, vascular function, vascular health, resistance training is really important to support that. So like all these other things become important as well. [2:10:17] So like that's kind of a, [2:10:19] It's just showing the first part of the book is saying, hey, we kind of focused a lot here, but actually... [2:10:25] that's not it's not that's not important but like there's a whole bunch of other stuff that's important too um and a lot of it is related to things that we have control over so then then you know i we talk i talk about all the different types of exercise how different types of exercise affects different parts of the brain in different ways um nutrition [2:10:41] um talk a lot about cognitive stimulus social uh social connection um sleep um like i said stress management and stress mitigation and how you can kind of manage your performance in the moment um and then all of that comes together in terms of into like a model um that i call the 3s model of how these different like things kind of interact um and and affect you on a day-to-day basis

[2:11:04] So the... [2:11:06] The first S being stimulus, right? We've talked about all the reasons why that's important. The second S being supply. [2:11:14] which is if you stimulate a part of the brain or a network in the brain with a new skill, [2:11:20] that area of the brain, uh, the neurons and the astrocytes there, they ask for more blood flow. So the blood vessels have to widen, they dilate to bring in more oxygen, bring in more glucose or, or whatever metabolic substrate you're using ketones, lactate, et cetera. Um, and so you need really good cardiovascular health. That's critical. So that's, that's a big part of what we talk about. Um, you also need good metabolic health. So, um, [2:11:43] High blood pressure and high blood sugar are two of the biggest risk factors for later dementia because they affect this supply component, either the blood flow getting there or being able to regulate. [2:11:53] energy and then there's a bunch of nutrients that are important in in that bucket as well so omega-3s vitamin d [2:12:00] iron, magnesium, um, [2:12:03] Because they have B vitamins, they have very specific functions in the brain that we know that if you're deficient, you have an increased risk of cognitive decline and dementia. And then you've stimulated a part of the brain. You've kind of given it all the substrate it needs to do its job. [2:12:16] like we've talked about, adaptation occurs and function gets enhanced when we sleep or when we recover. So like that's support is the third bucket. So sleep is a part of that. [2:12:28] Other support you might get like hormonal status is important. Trophic factors, right? Hormones that get released or proteins to get released that support neuroplasticity in the brain, things like brain derived neurotrophic factor. And then you want to avoid things that kind of inhibit that process. So.

[2:12:44] as chronic stress can do that. It creates like an overtraining kind of picture in the brain. [2:12:48] Um... [2:12:49] uh, [2:12:50] smoking, excessive alcohol, air pollution, those kinds of things can have a negative effect. So that's how they all interact. And the fact that they interact means that... [2:13:02] depending on [2:13:03] What feels most impactful to you? Like, what's the thing that you think you can move the needle on? [2:13:08] by focusing on one area, the whole network starts to shift. And we see that in multiple different studies. So... [2:13:15] If you focus on sleep... [2:13:17] and you sleep a bit better, [2:13:19] Then we see that, like, [2:13:21] inflammation decreases and blood pressure improves and blood sugar improves and the next day you feel more sociable so you're more likely to interact with other people in a [2:13:28] friendly way and you're more likely to engage in cognitively stimulating tasks because [2:13:33] when we're tired, we kind of shy away from those things. And it's the same if you... So there are studies in older adults where... [2:13:40] You give them a brain training program and they sleep better because when you stimulate [2:13:45] a tissue, you then drive greater need for recovery afterwards. It's the same if you exercise more, you sleep better. So, [2:13:52] It's not like this long list of things that everybody has to do. Because when you give somebody a list of 37 things, they'll do zero things. We know that. So if you just know that they all kind of communicate and interact... [2:14:04] Anywhere you come in, you can start to kind of shift things in your favor. Now, when you're compiling a book like this, I would imagine there's a lot of editing. And so how do you decide what to leave? I mean, this looks like it's – I mean, obviously these are all blank pages, so they're not numbered. But it looks like this is at least a 300-page book. The final book is about 450 pages. Oh. 165,000 words. Whoa. And the reference list –

[2:14:30] I like, so... [2:14:31] Unlike most health books, [2:14:33] Every time I make a statement or I mention a study, there's a little number... [2:14:38] And that gives you the paper or papers that I'm talking about that supports that, right? It's 2,000 papers long. [2:14:46] And so that all has to go online because they couldn't afford to print it in the book. But that's probably better anyway. Yeah, yeah. Because there's like seven people who will do that. They'll read the book and then they'll go and look. Psychos. Yeah, yeah. So it's important to me. Anyway, people who want to do that can do that. [2:15:07] But... [2:15:09] In... [2:15:10] I'm not quite sure how it ended up being this way. [2:15:14] But I actually had to cut very little. But there were things where I kind of went down a little bit of a rabbit hole. The editor was like, man, I'm not sure we really need this. [2:15:22] Um... [2:15:23] But... [2:15:24] I basically wrote until I got to the word limit and then I stopped and I focused on [2:15:31] the things that I knew that were important and we're going to stay important even in the age of AI and as technology improves and changes. Um, um, [2:15:38] So there wasn't a ton that ended up getting cut out. [2:15:42] But when you're putting it together, how do you decide what's prominent, what's the most important thing to focus on, where to put things... [2:15:52] So... [2:15:57] When... [2:15:59] When I started...

[2:16:02] When I started writing, as you saw, I'm going to disagree with my former self. I wrote the first part of the book like three times. And the first time I wrote it, it was like 40,000 words all focused on psychology and like... [2:16:17] super esoteric and academic and I was like, nobody's going to read this. [2:16:22] So, like, had to be scratched a couple of times. So then... [2:16:27] The core middle part of the book is... [2:16:31] All those different areas that we know are important, like the big rocks, [2:16:34] and practical frameworks for how to address those. And then [2:16:39] Then there's an introduction to like, why should you care about this? [2:16:43] for like individuals over 40, dementia is... [2:16:48] The most important thing [2:16:50] health concern, right? Um, [2:16:53] More than 10% say they've experienced changes in cognitive function. [2:16:57] we know that the rates of dementia are going to double or triple in the next two or three decades. So why do people care about this? [2:17:04] And like some, some history there. Um, [2:17:08] And then the middle part is... [2:17:10] which I always knew I was going to write. These are the most important things, and they're always going to remain the most important things. And then the last chapter is sort of like just kind of bringing it together. [2:17:18] Um... [2:17:19] Does that answer your question? It does. It does. Well, I'm glad you wrote it because I think it's a very important thing. And I think there's a lot of people out there that don't understand the risks of being sedentary and that – [2:17:30] These are things that you can change. And that you can improve the quality of your life by making those changes. And...

[2:17:38] It might make you uncomfortable to begin something like that, but there's some real value in that uncomfortable feeling of trying something new. Absolutely. And then it really does change the way your brain functions, and it'll improve the quality of your life. [2:17:53] In this case, if possible, hold off dementia and just hold off cognitive decline without calling it dementia. So many people experience cognitive decline because of atrophy. Yeah. Yeah. So it's – [2:18:07] That's kind of like the... [2:18:09] the... [2:18:10] the worst possible end state we want to avoid. Right. But you want to maintain your current level of cognitive function for as long as possible. Right. [2:18:18] and possibly improve it. And possibly improve it. And there is evidence you can improve it even later in life. And so a big part of this is that [2:18:27] when you [2:18:28] Earlier we talked about this graph of cognitive function, right? It increases to 20 or 30 and then it declines. [2:18:35] When we're doing studies that show that kind of thing, [2:18:38] What we're doing is we're looking at a whole bunch of people, maybe... [2:18:41] tens or hundreds of thousands of people and we're saying like, [2:18:44] You plot them all on a graph. [2:18:45] And yeah, as you sort of increase in age, there are some people who are going to lose function. You kind of like draw the average down. But we've known... [2:18:53] essentially since, for the last 50 years, [2:18:56] that... [2:18:57] When you look at the same person... [2:19:00] over several... [2:19:01] decades. [2:19:02] it's actually very normal for us to maintain function. So the Seattle longitudinal study was run by a guy called Warner Shai in Seattle. And it was one of the first studies where they measured cognitive function in the same people.

[2:19:16] every seven years for several decades. And like every seven years they measured the same people and brought in new people. And so they ended up with people who were like in their twenties up to over a hundred years old. And, [2:19:26] they found that the average effect by that, I mean that more than 50% of people, [2:19:31] maintain the same level of cognitive function into their 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s. And those data were used to actually raise the retirement age in the US in the 1980s, because they showed that it actually wasn't normal for people to decline. But the problem is now we've... [2:19:47] embodied this idea that as you get older, you will decline. And as a result, you stop engaging in all the things that we've talked about. So you're like, oh, I'm too old to lift that. I'm too old to learn a new skill. I don't have time to do that. And as a result, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You stop engaging in those processes and decline happens as a result. But if we know that it's possible to maintain function and we continue to engage in those processes, [2:20:14] The norm should be that... [2:20:15] function is maintained. Last question. Did you do an audio version of this? Yeah, I'm recording at the moment. All right. [2:20:22] When will that be available? Be out on the same day, March 24th. March 24th. Stimulated Mind, Dr. Tommy Wood. [2:20:29] Go get it, folks. I promise it won't be like this. [2:20:33] Thank you, Tommy. I really enjoyed this. Thanks so much, Tommy. Thank you very much. I think it's really important information, too. And I think it's something that everyone should apply. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Bye, everybody.

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