The social radar: Y Combinator’s secret weapon | Jessica Livingston (co-founder of YC, author)

[00:00] I want to start with a quote by someone you may know, Paul Graham. Much of what's novel about YC is due to Jessica Livingston. If you don't know her, you don't understand YC. My three co-founders were deeply technical, but I would look at other things about founders. You know, all these little social cues. Your nickname was the social radar. Every interview, everyone always turned to you and they're like, Jessica, what does their social radar say? [00:30] would get defensive, that was always a bad sign. - Is there anything else along the Airbnb story that would be interesting to share? - He hated their idea and Paul tried to get Brian and Joe and Nate to change it. But I remember specifically Joe brought out the cereal boxes, the Obama-Os and Captain McCain's. And I just thought, oh my God, they're gonna work hard to do whatever they can to make this company succeed. - Can you just talk a bit about this idea of just making shit happen, showing signs of being hustlers? - You sort of need that desperation. You have to burn the boat. [01:03] Today my guest is Jessica Livingston. Jessica is the co-founder of Y Combinator, the first and most famous startup accelerator, which since 2005 has funded over 5,000 companies [01:15] including over 200 unicorns now worth over a billion dollars [01:19] including companies like Airbnb, Stripe, DoorDash, Coinbase, Dropbox, Instacart, Reddit, the list goes on. Jessica is also the author of one of the best-selling books about startups, founders at work, and hosts the Social Radars podcast. She lives in England with her husband, who you may know, and her two sons. In our conversation, we dive deep into Jessica's superpower of being the social radar. She got this nickname in the early days of YC because she can read people incredibly well.

[01:49] It becomes a huge unfair advantage when you're evaluating and investing in early stage startups and founders, but also becomes useful in every part of your life. There's actually a quiz that I'm going to link to in the show notes called Reading the Mind in the Eyes that I suggest you take to see how you do. And it'll give you a sense of how well you are at reading people. Jessica got a perfect score just as an example of her unique talents, reading people's emotions, along with her superpower and tips on how you can develop your own social radar. [02:19] fabulous podcast called The Social Radars, some wild early YC stories, including how the interview with the Airbnb founders actually went down, and so much more. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Jessica Livingston. [02:45] Jessica, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Lenny. I'm glad to be here. [02:52] I want to start with a quote. [02:54] by someone you may know, Paul Graham. [02:57] So he wrote, [02:59] A few months ago, an article by Y Combinator [03:01] said that early on it had been a one-man show. [03:04] It's sadly common to read that sort of thing. [03:07] But the problem with that description is not just that it's unfair. [03:10] It's also misleading. [03:11] Much of what's novel about YC is due to Jessica Livingston. [03:16] If you don't know her, you don't understand her. [03:18] YC.

[03:20] I'm hoping with this conversation we help. [03:22] A lot more people [03:23] Understand you? [03:25] Kind of an implication of this quote that I wanted to ask you about is that there's an implication that you've never gotten the credit that you deserve. [03:33] for [03:34] Starting YC for helping YC. [03:36] become what it's become. I'm just curious what that's been like [03:39] for you. [03:40] It's sort of a hard question. It is true. [03:43] Like, [03:44] I was one of the co-founders of Y Combinator and yet [03:48] I'm [03:49] often sort of left out of [03:51] news articles, [03:53] I mean... [03:54] Wikipedia people! [03:56] want to take my entry off of Wikipedia all the time. I'm not as notable. And I'm sort of like, gosh, I'm a founder of Y Combinator. [04:04] Author of a bestselling book on startups, [04:07] You know, what does a girl have to do? [04:09] Um, [04:10] But, you know... [04:12] It is what it is. It's the external... [04:16] views. [04:17] And it's not, it doesn't matter to me. [04:19] Do you know what I mean? Like people within YC know what I've done. [04:23] The Y Combinator alumni know what I've done. My friends and family and people [04:27] I respect in the Silicon Valley community know what I've done, or most of them do. So, [04:34] That's fine. [04:35] But it is true. I've often been sort of erased. And in some cases... [04:40] It's annoying. [04:41] because it's a lot of people who have a certain narrative about Y Combinator. [04:47] that don't want me to exist. I've, I've, [04:49] I mean, maybe...

[04:51] making that up a little bit or [04:53] the people that sort of don't want me to be part of the narrative are the ones that think that [04:59] Y Combinator only invests. It's run by white men. [05:03] Only invest in white men. [05:05] And gosh, if there was a woman on the founding team making choices of who to fund, [05:10] that would undermine their narrative. So I think sometimes that's what happens too. [05:15] Fascinating. Just a convenient story to tell sometimes. [05:20] This episode is brought to you by Interpret. Interpret unifies all of your customer interactions, from gong calls to Zendesk tickets to Twitter threads to App Store reviews, and makes it available for your product team. It's used by leading product orgs like Canva, Notion, Loom, Linear, and Descript to accurately integrate the voice of the customer into your product development process, helping you build best-in-class products. [05:49] specific adaptive AI models that provide the most granular and accurate categorization of all your customer feedback and also connect customer feedback to revenue impact to help product leaders confidently prioritize things that will actually move the needle for your business. If you want a custom model built for your organization so that you can automate your feedback loops and prioritize your roadmap with confidence, get in touch with the team at [06:19] Thank you.

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[07:53] So YC, your nickname was the Social Radar. [07:57] Your podcast is called The Social Radars. [08:00] I haven't seen you. [08:02] talk too much about the skill anywhere else. [08:05] And that's what I want to spend our time on together to better understand the skill that you've built of being this. [08:10] Social Radar. [08:11] How does that sound? [08:13] I will try, Lenny. I will try. I don't talk much about it because I don't [08:18] It's hard to talk about. I don't understand. It's hard to put into words exactly what it is about. [08:25] me, but it's true that my nickname at [08:28] Y Combinator. [08:30] was [08:31] The Social Radar. [08:32] And I think it was because my three co-founders were deeply technical people. [08:38] And, [08:39] I was not. [08:40] But I would look at other things about founders when we'd have these 10 minute interviews [08:46] I would look at [08:48] Are these... [08:49] Are the people, do the co-founders get along? [08:53] Are these people committed to [08:55] Do they really... [08:57] know about their product, do they care, are they going to quit their job or [09:01] Are they telling us that they are going to quit their job but really aren't? You know, all these little social cues. [09:07] that I'd try to pick up on [09:09] And in a lot of cases, red flags about them [09:13] that I'd add to the decision-making process. And so that's why they called me the social radar. [09:19] And it just sort of stuck. And it's because I love... [09:22] people and the dynamics and understanding what's motivating people

[09:28] I mean, that's I just love it. And I love founder psychology, founders personalities. I mean, [09:35] I just I'm absolutely fascinated with it. [09:37] I love it. Okay, so we're going to try to unpack as much as we can with the context that you're not exactly sure if you're able to [09:43] articulate exactly how this power of yours works. Yes, yes, yes, yes. [09:48] There's this line you wrote somewhere, and Paul's written this and other people, that every interview... [09:53] that you all did early on at YC. Everyone always turned to you. [09:57] And they're like, "Jessica, what do you think? What does their social radar say?" [10:00] Can you just talk a bit about that role that you played in the early days YC of kind of seeing that side of [10:04] Well, in the early days, especially before I knew a lot about [10:11] As much as I know now about startups and founders, I mean, early on, I was learning a lot in the first few years. [10:17] And in the first few years, [10:19] You know, it was just the four of us. So I would be in charge of going out, [10:24] telling people wait here, [10:26] while we do the interview, come on in. [10:28] I'd be in charge of like the stopwatch that would time us. And I'd say, okay, our time's up. And it was very... [10:35] administrative and I would [10:37] observe. I wouldn't, you know, Paul, Robert and Trevor, my co-founders, would be asking them all sorts of questions about their product and their technology and blah blah blah blah blah. I would occasionally ask questions, but I'd usually remain pretty silent. [10:51] And so I don't think people even really noticed me. [10:54] but I would be just watching them and sort of, [10:57] trying to observe as much as I could.

[11:00] not understanding sometimes even the technology that they were talking about. I let my co-founders do that. [11:06] And then after, [11:08] You know, we'd be talking, they'd look at me and they'd be like, should we fund them? [11:12] "You know, Jessica should refund them." [11:14] And. [11:15] you know, sometimes I could tell based on the conversation whether they [11:20] thought that the technology was good or how they felt. And sometimes I'd say, absolutely, we should. Or I should. Or sometimes I'd say, [11:27] guys you know i'm a little nervous did you see how that founder interrupted the other founder and wouldn't let the other founder talk [11:35] And so because my three co-founders sometimes wouldn't notice this, they'd be so caught up [11:41] in the conversation they were having about the technology, especially Paul, Paul would get really into things. [11:48] And sometimes I always tease Paul because one of his... [11:51] defining qualities is that sometimes someone would have an idea that he'd get so excited about that by the end of the interview he'd be giving them ideas about how to grow their product and you know what they could become and they'd sit there saying yeah yeah that's a great idea and then he'd say fund them [12:09] And I'd say, whoa, whoa, whoa, Paul, you can't just fund this because you love the idea. Let's take a step back and let's look. [12:15] Like these two founders are working at Google and they don't say they're going to quit. That's not good. You know, and I'd, [12:22] point out these things that I had observed. But I mean, we always agreed. It was very rare that we wouldn't agree on [12:29] on funding, something we were usually on the same page.

[12:32] I see. It's interesting that you talk about these... [12:37] behaviors like co-founders interrupting each other or being kind of aggressive here and there. [12:42] Some people believe that's okay for founders to be like this, you know, like a lot of successful founders, Elon, for example, Steve Jobs are kind of assholes a lot of times. [12:51] I imagine... [12:53] And I've read part of the reason you thought about just like the [12:56] type of person is you're trying to build a specific culture in the early days of yc and you're going to be around these people [13:02] So maybe can you talk a bit about just like why that those elements were important to you and why did you look for those? [13:07] I mean, I've definitely heard that [13:09] that Steve Jobs could be an asshole. I've heard stories. But I think I would have funded him because [13:16] He's so incredible and he's so he was so smart and so interested in the product and knew like I'm very persuaded. [13:24] by [13:25] people who know what they're talking about and love their product and are domain experts. [13:30] But, but... [13:31] I did... [13:33] consciously, especially early on, less so later on. [13:36] Early on, I did... [13:38] sometimes tend to say, [13:40] I really think this person's an asshole. I do not want to fund them. [13:44] and we often wouldn't. And I very early on when we were just funding, you know, 10, 20, 30, [13:51] startups a batch, I would sometimes [13:53] I have been known to say like, [13:55] I don't know if I can have dinner with them every week. [13:58] Like it was at that point. [14:00] And, [14:01] I don't think we've ever regretted any of those. It didn't happen all the time. That was rare. But I just...

[14:08] life's too short, you know, life's too short. And, and I wanted like a nice, [14:13] I wanted to be able to work with these founders. And as it turns out, it was sort of important early on in weeding out like explicit assholes [14:23] because that was the basis of our Y Combinator community, which is now [14:27] thousands of founders. [14:29] Now, of course, all the founders aren't [14:32] all running their company anymore, but most, I would say, most all of the founders bring something [14:39] useful and valuable to the table. So if you ask a question on Bookface on our, you know, forum for founders, someone is going to be there to help you. And it's, [14:49] amazing and that all started very early on there was this [14:53] culture, [14:54] of [14:55] you know, older batch mates, [14:57] helping newer ones and this this pay it forward mentality where everyone helped one another and rooted for one another and [15:05] made introductions for each other and [15:07] I think it's a big part of our Y Combinator community now. [15:11] So I wrote down a few of the things that you mentioned you look for and you looked for in the early days. [15:16] So let me just share a few of them and let's spend a little more time here. [15:19] So you look for, did the founders get along? [15:23] Are they committed to [15:24] to the idea [15:26] Are they ready to quit their job? [15:29] Are there any red flags? [15:31] So is there anything else that you remember you spent a lot of time thinking about or looking for then or even now? [15:36] There's looking for in the application, and then there's looking for in the interview.

[15:42] And now we have software that looks for all of the red flags in the application that I used to do by hand. [15:51] in the application I'd look for [15:53] Just weird things. [15:55] Like, was there, like, a... [15:57] huge gap in the equity allocation. Like did one founder of 99% and one founder of 1%? [16:05] That's weird. I'd want to dig in on that. That doesn't feel right. [16:08] You know, are they going to quit their job? [16:10] Are they going to [16:13] move to Silicon Valley. What are their current shareholders? Is like 90% of their company already owned by someone else? There are all these weird things that we like to just... [16:23] flag and we wouldn't like necessarily not fund someone because of them [16:28] but it's just more data, right? [16:30] So that was in the application, and I'd look through all of those. But in the interview... [16:36] I definitely was sort of one thing I remember I would always look for was. [16:41] when you'd have a conversation [16:43] with us [16:45] A lot of times, [16:46] Paul especially, but Robert and Trevor, would really be [16:50] getting right into the idea and questioning you and how do you know this and what about this, [16:56] And if a founder would get [16:57] Defensive? [17:00] that was always a bad sign always a bad sign the best founders would say you know gosh i have thought about it and here's what i figured out or they just have this [17:10] almost a tennis match and a conversation.

[17:13] rather than [17:14] closing up and feeling like, oh, this person's [17:17] interrogating me [17:18] You could just sort of the open mindedness, the flexible mindedness of people was really important. [17:25] I'd get really excited about domain expertise. I mean, like my co-founders, we all loved that. [17:32] If someone... [17:33] was fixing their own problem in a, [17:36] the broken industry, we loved that. Definitely I'd look for co-founder relationships. And again, I'm not saying I was always right, but you could tell if [17:46] you know, one founder... [17:48] I'll give it a story. One founder wants to [17:51] We asked a question, [17:53] And one person started to respond, [17:55] And the other founder, like, [17:57] put his arm in front of him and said, I'll answer that question. It was just so... [18:03] Weird. [18:04] that he wouldn't let his co-founder speak. [18:07] We'd have situations where we'd call people like "hackers in a cage" [18:12] where it's kind of [18:13] obvious. There'd be like a business founder, business person [18:17] who had clearly, like, convinced... [18:21] a programmer to join the team, [18:24] They were given, the programmer was given like very little equity. [18:28] And we called them like programmers in a cage, like hackers in a cage. [18:32] And [18:34] Sometimes that works out. I'm not saying it doesn't. [18:37] But I'd always try to observe like, okay, does this hacker in a cage have any... [18:42] like say in the company,

[18:44] the direction of the product, [18:47] That sort of thing, because the programmer needs to have opinions, right? [18:51] So funny. I love this metaphor. And I totally get what you mean. [18:55] I want to unpack a couple of these because this is exactly where I was hoping we'd go. So this idea of looking for defensiveness [19:02] and being open to change and being flexible. Why do you think that was so important to successful founders? Why did you look for that? Why was that a predictor? [19:09] Several things. First of all, [19:12] Being defensive is really bad if you're a startup founder, because you're always going to get people who question you. [19:20] And it's your job to sort of educate them if it's a new area, if you're doing something presumably pretty new. [19:28] you're always going to have people who question it or say, "That product's already out there. Why is yours better?" [19:35] You have to educate them. You don't want to be defensive about it. [19:39] Also, a lot of times the first idea isn't [19:43] bang right on [19:44] you know, the right idea and you have to be open-minded and maybe adjust it in a certain direction. [19:50] the famous like paypal story how did how it started off being you know the palm pilot [19:56] or money transfer, [19:58] And [20:00] money transfer between the Palm Pilots or whatever. [20:02] And then all the customers were using a janky version on the web. [20:07] And [20:08] They were begging for this to be on the web. And finally, the founder said, oh, I see what most people want this for. You have to be open-minded.

[20:16] to see what direction really is what your users want. [20:20] And so if you find someone is defensive, [20:24] Usually they're not open-minded. [20:25] The other saying, [20:27] is that the best founders [20:29] will want to learn from other people and listen to other people. [20:34] I mean, [20:36] You talked to the Collison brothers? [20:38] and say something that they ask you a question they're listening to your answer [20:42] I can't. [20:43] So many founders think, oh, I can't learn from anyone, but the best founders are always the [20:49] listening and having spirited debates. [20:52] about things. I mean, that's part of the process. [20:54] And so I think when someone's defensive, [20:57] Just a bad sign. [20:59] Yeah, so I would look for that. [21:01] I loved when I'd find someone... [21:04] sort of showcase that they'd [21:06] Make something happen. [21:07] no matter what. Like they're scrappy, they're hustlers, [21:12] I remember... [21:13] - Yeah. [21:14] Can I tell the story about the Airbnb interview? Please. Okay, because that was definitely one I'll never forget. [21:21] That was one that was clear [21:23] the founders were really good. The market had just crashed basically with [21:28] all the banks, [21:30] going out of business and everything. And so we were only funding... [21:34] startups that we felt had like really scrappy founders and could be [21:38] cockroaches, meaning could live off of very little amounts of money or could charge customers and make money. [21:44] and we didn't fund that many people in that winter 09 batch

[21:48] So we're being very strict with ourselves, very disciplined about things. [21:52] and the Airbnb guys came in [21:55] And I just remember they had... [21:58] a contagious amount of energy. They just had an energy about them, the way that they [22:04] talked about [22:05] they're [22:06] product, which was crazy at the time, staying in someone's, you know, [22:10] Bed? [22:11] Air bed? [22:13] In fact, it's a famous part of the story. We hated their idea, and Paul tried to get Brian and Joe and Nate to change it. [22:19] So, [22:20] We didn't even like the idea. [22:22] But I remember specifically they brought at the end, Joe brought out these like the cereal boxes, the Obama owes and Captain Crunches or Captain McCain's or whatever. Captain McCain's. Yeah. Yeah. [22:33] Captain McCain's [22:34] And [22:36] They were saying that... [22:38] They had to. [22:40] They went to some like, you know, [22:42] Costco or something and bought off-brand Cheerios and off-brand Cap'n Crunches, took them out of the box, [22:49] put them in this new box, glue gunned it shut, [22:53] And I just thought, [22:54] "Oh my God, these guys are really going to great lengths for this." And for some reason, it was silly, but it really appealed to me. [23:02] They're going to work hard to do whatever they can [23:05] to make this company succeed. [23:07] And even though we were skeptical about the idea, I mean, I think we definitely made the right bet on the founders. And it was just very clear in that interview. [23:16] I'm so happy to share that story. I was definitely going to ask about it. It's so funny because

[23:21] I've heard that story at least a hundred times working at Airbnb. That's like, [23:25] They tell the story, the beginning of Airbnb, [23:27] Every chance they get it, every all hands, it's like a recurring... [23:31] theme, and it's great to hear that it basically went exactly the way they describe. Oftentimes there's like a [23:37] myth around what happened, but that's exactly how they describe it. No, it was definitely a whole crazy story in how Paul called them to accept them, and the [23:46] They were on the 280 or something or the 101 and the reception went down. [23:51] And so he didn't hear if they were accepted or not. [23:55] Did you tell that part? No, I haven't heard that part. [23:58] Oh, yeah, that's part of the story. And they had to keep driving to like get [24:03] to talk to Paul again and find out that they were accepted. Oh, yeah. It was just a crazy... [24:08] interview. [24:09] The element of the story I'm also curious about is the way Joe tells it is he had the box in his backpack. [24:15] And as they were walking out, Paul or you was like, hey, what's that cereal box doing there? [24:20] Is that how it went or is it more like, hey, we have the serial thing? [24:23] I don't think Paul and I... [24:26] like looked in his backpack and asked. I think there was definitely some pressure on Joe not to show us the cereal boxes. I think Nate was really down on that. [24:37] especially [24:39] And I think they were walking out the door and they're like, hey, we just brought you a little something. I think Joe did pull it out. [24:46] And we had an extra like minute or so around the cereal boxes. That's how I heard about the glue gun story and everything.

[24:53] But I think Joe had been reluctant, but he did it. [24:57] at the end and I think it was a good call. [24:59] That's so funny. [25:01] And after that [25:02] meeting, what was that conversation like between you and Paul? Was it just like everyone's like, we definitely got to do this? Or was it like you being like, hey, these guys are really interesting? [25:10] No, I think we all liked him. [25:12] We all liked him, but I remember saying, we have got to fund... I just remember being like, we've got to fund these guys. I don't know about the idea. [25:19] Maybe they'll change their idea. Who knows? But they seem [25:23] really great. They just, again, the energy level and the passion [25:27] with which they spoke about [25:29] their experience [25:31] you know, hosting because they've been around struggling but had been a company with an idea for, you know, a little while before they applied to YC. We were there basically the Hail Mary, their last [25:42] resort. [25:44] Um, [25:45] for them. And so... [25:47] they could tell us about their [25:49] story about how they hosted the people at a conference and there was definitely some magic to it. [25:55] which was convincing. [25:57] Is there anything else along the Airbnb story that would be interesting to share while we're on that topic? [26:01] I mean, the only interesting thing as it relates to being the social radar is that there were just [26:06] Some interviews that I remember because I just thought [26:09] This is great. [26:11] Like these founders are so good. I'm totally convinced. [26:15] What they're working on might not work. [26:17] But I feel like [26:19] It's so worth the bet. [26:20] based on these founders. And that happened, there were

[26:23] Definitely a couple other... [26:25] of our most successful companies that I clearly felt that way about. You just feel like they know what they're talking about. They've thought about the problem. [26:34] They're not... [26:35] solving this problem because it's [26:37] sort of a [26:39] the problem du jour or fun and exciting like some are very unsexy problems like [26:46] when Parker Conrad applied with Zenefits, [26:49] you know, unsexy HR stuff. [26:52] benefits stuff, but he knew how broken it was and was trying to fix it. [26:58] And I love. [26:59] stories like that. You know, there was one story... [27:03] in terms of the one time I did sort of persuade the rest of the group [27:07] to fund someone, [27:09] was, do you know the company Goat? [27:11] The sneaker. [27:12] Absolutely. Okay. [27:14] When... [27:15] Eddie and Darshan applied, they were not doing the sneaker company. [27:19] They were doing this [27:21] Group [27:23] sort of book a book a group dinner at a restaurant with people you don't know [27:28] as a way to meet new people. [27:29] And for some reason, I loved the idea because I thought maybe it could be like a secret [27:34] dating, like a Trojan horse for dating sort of site, but I really loved [27:38] the two founders. And one of the reasons, again, they... [27:42] had this passion about their idea, [27:45] They had had this cream puff company... [27:50] before that they had run and they just told these stories about how hard it was and they

[27:54] all this stuff. And I, for some reason, just, [27:57] thought [27:57] these are hustlers these guys are scrappy they're going to make this succeed [28:02] And... [28:02] They didn't make that company succeed, but they pivoted. [28:07] and made goats succeed and it's doing really really well and i remember that one i definitely [28:12] had [28:13] to convince. I mean, not that [28:15] Paul, Robert, and Trevor didn't like them, but I think they really didn't think the idea was that great or just sort of where Matt was like, we have to fund them. [28:23] I love sharing these stories. If you have more to share, please keep throwing them out there. [28:27] So a few things I've... [28:29] noted so far things that you look for and i think it's important to note [28:32] This is very early stage evaluation where the founder and the team is incredibly important because the idea often shifts. [28:40] Oh, yeah. [28:41] This is as early as it gets, Lenny. [28:43] Yeah, oftentimes just an idea, I imagine. [28:47] Yes. [28:48] So a few things. So, so far, things that you found to be really [28:52] uh, [28:52] valuable to look for. [28:54] One is... [28:55] This idea of just making shit happen, showing signs of being hustlers, just getting shit done. [29:00] Obama owes [29:02] Things like that. And then I think along the same lines, just like passion for this [29:06] for this idea and just like almost charisma? Is that how you think about it or is it just like... [29:11] I hate using the word charisma. [29:13] Because... [29:15] There are a lot of charismatic people who are full of baloney. [29:20] and and are just doing a startup because it's a cool thing to do now and i wouldn't want anyone to get

[29:27] Fooled by Charisma. [29:28] There has to be some substance behind that charisma. Of course, we all love talking to more charismatic people than less. And I've [29:37] certainly talked to my [29:39] fair share of totally uncharismatic people but sometimes they're really good founders too [29:45] If they know what they're doing and [29:48] care about the user and are fixing a problem that they... [29:52] you know, have a deep connection to, [29:54] So I don't want to say someone is charismatic. [29:57] But... [29:58] It definitely helps because as you know, as a founder, [30:02] you have to do a lot of sales and you have to recruit people and you have to convince investors [30:08] to fund you and you have to convince users to use your product and all this stuff. It does help [30:15] It does help being charismatic, definitely. [30:18] so okay so there's being like super hustler making should happen domain expertise something you've mentioned a few times just like having deep [30:25] domain expertise in area and I think [30:27] That's probably where they probably don't pivot oftentimes where they've actually have experience in that specific problem. [30:33] They might pivot a little bit. They might pivot a little in terms of the actual solution. They might be trying to solve a problem and the first attempt doesn't really work. [30:42] I haven't mentioned earnestness, though. Oh, yeah. [30:45] to tell. [30:47] earnestness is like one of the most important because [30:52] Ernest sort of to me is bucketed with authenticity. [30:56] And

[30:57] to be a successful startup founder, you have to care so much about [31:02] the problem you're trying to solve, the users you're serving, [31:06] and being earnest about it [31:09] is so key to success. I mean, there are so many [31:13] wannabe founders, so many people [31:16] doing it because it's cool [31:18] or they think [31:19] You know, this... [31:21] ideas cool, but they don't really deep down [31:24] Have what it takes. [31:26] And I think we always try to fund earnest people. [31:29] What does earnest look like in practice? How does that come across? [31:33] I think it means being sort of humble. [31:36] about [31:37] And if you get asked a question... [31:40] in the interview and you don't know the answer, [31:42] They say, [31:43] You know, I don't know the answer to that. [31:46] I'd have to think about it. Or, I don't know the answer, [31:50] I've given it some thought and here's what I have come up with. And they're just... [31:54] honest about things and they're not trying to sort of [31:57] do whole smoke and mirrors thing which we've definitely gotten people like that that like avoid the question or [32:04] or doing it for the wrong reasons. I mean... [32:08] Yeah, I remember there was one... [32:11] group that were like 45 year old men [32:14] and they were building [32:16] an app, [32:17] for like teenage [32:19] teenagers in fashion. [32:21] I remember just thinking, [32:23] We were asking them, why have you chosen teenagers in fashion? And it was so clear that they thought they could make

[32:29] Easy money. [32:30] And it wasn't because they cared about fashion. It wasn't because... [32:34] Oh, I have... [32:35] you know, a daughter who's really into fashion and I've seen this need. It was just like, [32:40] They made up the idea. [32:42] You know, and I that is not earnest. That is not authentic to me. [32:47] You talked about, so there's this earnestness you look for also not being defensive. [32:51] There's also this spectrum of confidence and people believing in what they're doing. [32:56] Do you have any thoughts on just how to find that? Like, what does that look like when they're [32:59] too defensive versus they're just confident and they know what they're [33:02] talking about. Confidence is good. You definitely want confidence. I mean, it's hard to [33:08] I think you can see it when you experience it. Like someone, you can... [33:14] Someone who's confident in answering your questions but isn't defensive, there's definitely a difference. [33:20] And I don't know, this is why I'm saying it's sort of hard to articulate these things. [33:24] But confidence means you can say, I've thought about that and I don't know the answer. Like that's confidence, you know, and they'll say, but here's what I do to try to figure it out. Here are my plans. [33:35] to address that [33:37] Yeah, confidence, I should have put that up front because that's very important, especially when it comes to... [33:45] fundraising, you cannot go into an investor meeting lacking confidence. You can come into YC's interview lacking confidence. [33:53] But we will then help you in the-- [33:55] next three months. [33:57] to gain more confidence and [33:59] By the way,

[34:00] One of the things we do to help people gain more confidence [34:03] is to make them believe that their startup is a great investment, to help them, like, create a startup that truly is... [34:11] possibly going to make money or at least worth [34:14] being a good bet that's the thing early stage [34:18] The best you can offer is like, I might not succeed. [34:22] But I'm... [34:23] Definitely a good bet. [34:25] And, you know, we help them. [34:27] with their product, we help them with their ideas, and we help them that by demo day, they can get up on stage and legitimately say, "We're a good bet, and here's why. Let me tell you about our idea." [34:39] And so we definitely help with confidence. [34:43] Awesome. [34:44] A couple of other things you mentioned earlier just unpack a little bit. So being committed is something you look for. [34:49] And co-founders are getting along. [34:51] In terms of committed, I imagine these are like very practical... [34:54] things, right? Like, how are they actually going to stick to this? Are they actually excited to work on this? Maybe talk about that a little bit. [35:00] We all know how hard startups are. [35:02] But I think you don't really know how hard it is until you actually do it. [35:07] A lot of people would start a startup still having a job at Google or wherever. [35:12] and they do it on the side. Because I do recommend if people are just getting started and don't want to raise money yet, starting it on the side is a great way to get going. [35:21] But at some point you have to commit. You have to burn the boat. [35:24] because we found that [35:26] founders who were still getting a paycheck in health insurance,

[35:30] Once the going got tough... [35:32] Uh, [35:33] They did not quit their job. [35:36] And you need that [35:38] You sort of need that desperation. Like, I have to make this startup succeed. [35:44] Because that... [35:46] It's my job. [35:47] You know, not like, oh, I'll just stay at Google. [35:49] You need that. And we found that founders who weren't leaving their jobs, it was just not working out or like that co-founder would always wind up leaving the company. [35:59] because they didn't want to actually leave their job. [36:02] you know, that's fine. There are people that [36:04] can't leave their jobs for financial reasons, that's fine. [36:08] You just shouldn't be starting a startup if you're not [36:10] going to be prepared to leave your job. [36:12] So that's the leaving of the job thing. [36:15] and the co-founders getting along [36:17] I mean, oh my. [36:20] I spent a lot of my time at Y Combinator when I was there all the time, full time. [36:25] You know. [36:26] mediating co-founder disputes. And so many startups [36:31] died [36:33] or had near-death experiences because the co-founders didn't get along or broke up, [36:37] It just happens all the time. [36:40] And so that's why I think during interviews I was interested [36:43] desperately trying to search for any clues... [36:46] that the co-founders didn't get along. [36:49] or if they like [36:50] blatantly contradicted each other. [36:52] But you could also tell [36:54] if they were answering, you know, finishing each other's sentences. [36:58] You know, like I love co-founders that have a history together.

[37:02] Either... [37:03] They went to school together, they went to college together, worked together, maybe they're siblings. [37:10] Because when you have a long-term relationship, [37:12] You trust each other and you know each other's weaknesses and... [37:16] You're usually on the same page with your... [37:20] aspirations and everything. It's really scary when two founders get together just to start the startup. [37:27] and don't have any history. [37:30] massive red flag. Sometimes it works out. [37:33] like in the case of Dropbox, [37:35] Drew and Arash, you know, both went to MIT, but I think [37:38] They didn't know each other. [37:40] before they started Dropbox, and it worked out. [37:43] But most of the time, it doesn't. [37:46] So we've talked about co-founders getting along, looking for defensiveness, domain expertise, [37:51] the sign of making shit happen. [37:53] burnousness, [37:54] Is there anything else that we missed that you look for in... [37:58] the founders that tell you maybe we should, maybe we shouldn't. [38:02] relentlessly resourceful. [38:05] I mean, that's sort of Paul wrote a whole essay on that. [38:07] I mean, every founder is different. I never try to say, oh, this person doesn't have this. I'm not going to fund them. [38:14] You always have to. Everyone's different. [38:17] But I mean, you're an investor. I'm curious, do any of these things surprise you? Or do you care about these things too? [38:24] Absolutely, absolutely. [38:25] I actually try to avoid pre-seed and early stage because... [38:31] I'm not amazing at it. Maybe.

[38:33] This is why I want to learn how to build my social reverse. Oh, gosh. Okay. [38:38] Yeah, tough. It's so tough. It's like so few things actually work out. Well, it's because you don't have a lot of data. If someone is just applying with an idea... [38:47] You have very little data. You can look at [38:49] where they went to college, what have they built, [38:52] in the past, that's always a great predictor. [38:55] of their ability [38:56] And so on YC's application, we asked them what [38:59] What project have you worked on before or whatever? [39:02] But it's really hard to tell. [39:04] When you're the first investor. [39:07] This episode is brought to you by Vanta. When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast. Now you can assess risk, secure the trust of your customers, and automate compliance for SOC 2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, and more with a single platform, Vanta. [39:36] Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI. Join thousands of global companies that use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews. Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com slash lenny. That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash lenny. [40:00] When did you first notice that you had this social radar-ish skill?

[40:06] And you're better at this than other people. [40:08] Paul used to always call me Detective Livingston. Before I was a social radar, I was Detective Livingston. [40:14] Like I cannot help myself. [40:17] noticing weird things like [40:19] Just dumb things. Like if Paul, like... [40:22] hat on a yellow t-shirt. [40:23] And then an hour later came in with a blue T-shirt. [40:27] I'd be like... [40:27] Why do you have a blue T-shirt on? Like, I can't, I have to, I have to understand what happened in that hour. [40:33] Wear that t-shirt is different. [40:35] You know, I just... [40:36] Or people's like, what... [40:37] their relationships, which drives them, [40:40] I was always like this, and I think it goes back to my childhood. Like, I spent... [40:45] hours and hours on the phone with people, with my girlfriends, like dissecting situations, and then all through high school and college. I mean, the amount of time [40:56] We wasted. [40:57] like discussing social matters with people and boys and things like that. [41:02] It was just... [41:04] Frightening how much time I wasted, but I just was genuinely... [41:08] interested in it and what drives people and why did this happen and [41:11] I don't know if I ever noticed I did this, but it was just, my point is, it's always been a part of me. [41:17] And I definitely notice... [41:19] and have an aversion to like phony people like i i always have i've never been one to fall [41:26] for like someone who's super phony and like [41:29] tried to have him as a friend or anything. I just can tell and I hate it. [41:34] Do you feel like it's almost all genetic? Or do you think there's something in your childhood that

[41:39] pushed you to be good at this. [41:42] I don't know. [41:43] I really don't know. This is why I think I'm going to be... [41:47] A bad guess because I can't give practical... [41:49] I can't give a practical understanding. I mean, I don't, [41:53] really think [41:54] I can't say other people in my family are like that, and I can't say... [41:59] that it was part of my upbringing. [42:02] I just noticed these things. I don't know. I mean, I should be paying attention to other things. [42:07] But I'm not. [42:08] But I'm paying attention to this. Like, I'll give you an example with you. Please. [42:13] So, [42:14] I looked up your bio... [42:16] to read a little bit about you. And I loved the Dalton Caldwell... [42:21] podcast. I listen to that. [42:23] Fourth most popular of all time. [42:25] Dalton's was? Yes. [42:27] Oh, go Dalton! That's awesome! Yeah, it was really good. I really, like, I learned a lot from it. I love listening to Dalton. [42:35] But like what I really want to know about you is on the release that you sent or on the like instructions for this podcast, you said... [42:44] There might be some edge cases where [42:47] Your podcast isn't good enough to go out. We just want to warn you. [42:51] And like all I could think of was like what prompted that. [42:54] Who, who, who? There has to be a story of what prompted that. [42:59] No one else would pay attention to that, but I'm just... [43:01] So curious. It's like, it's so weird. I'm just a weird person like this. [43:07] Yes, I did add that. There's a story, basically, it was just an episode that wasn't amazing and

[43:13] We didn't have that caveat in the... [43:15] prep beforehand and it felt bad to tell the person [43:19] See, I knew it. I knew that that had happened. [43:22] Mm-hmm. [43:23] That's exactly right. [43:24] Is there kind of a way you've thought about honing this skill over time? Like once you kind of got a sense, people keep telling me I'm really good at this. Is there something you've done to help? [43:33] strengthen it. [43:35] No, but one of the things I do try to do is... [43:40] Sort of [43:41] reinforce like sometimes I'll have a [43:44] a feeling about someone, [43:46] Maybe we fund them, maybe we don't. [43:48] Sort of like to know... [43:50] what happens a few years later, I like to follow up. [43:53] Like there definitely have been some situations where people, [43:57] I haven't liked someone that we funded [44:00] and it's taken, you know, five to ten years before they failed, [44:04] And in some cases, like, [44:06] for a bad reason. [44:08] You know, where I'll say, oh, thank God I was right about that. I did have this feeling. Or... [44:15] You know, I knew they'd be successful. [44:17] And like the goat guys who I was saying before... [44:21] There was definitely a period when GrubWithUs, their first startup, wasn't doing well. [44:26] And they were starting like that. Maybe some people would have given up on them. [44:30] you know, and now I can say, you know, I was right about them. That feeling was right. So I do try to sort of [44:37] follow up with some of the [44:39] the really strong gut instincts that I had to see if I was right. I often

[44:44] Often when I have a gut instinct, it's like a negative thing. [44:48] so we wind up not funding someone. So I really need to know, [44:51] If that... [44:52] person went on to be super successful. [44:55] And I will answer your question right now. [44:58] There's no one... [45:00] Thank you. [45:01] that I'd [45:02] had a strong dislike for that I sort of said we should not fund them. [45:07] that has gone on to be a super success. [45:09] Thank God. [45:11] Interesting. I mean, it doesn't happen all the time that I really put my foot down, but sometimes I have. [45:18] And is this feeling, is it like a visceral body thing for you? Or is it like intellectually, you're like, notice, hey, this guy's interrupting her and this... [45:26] More intellectual. [45:27] But it does come from inside. Like I can't. [45:31] I don't know how to hone it. [45:33] I can't, it has to come natural. You have to have a natural interest in [45:38] sort of people. And so I'm sometimes not listening to all the words and I'm sort of just [45:43] observing them. I don't know. [45:45] Have you... [45:46] Ever been tricked by someone where you didn't see something you should have seen? Is there anything there? [45:52] Oh, yeah, for sure. I can't really talk about the times I have been tricked just because I don't want to say anything. [45:59] really negative about people. [46:01] But [46:03] There was one example that I do feel comfortable sharing. [46:08] Ilya Lichtenstein. [46:10] of [46:11] Mixrank, do you know the guy that stole billions of dollars in Bitcoin from a crypto wallet?

[46:17] Do you not know this crazy, crazy story? I think he's in the joint now. [46:22] he was definitely convicted of this and his wife [46:26] and they stole like billions of dollars, [46:29] Yeah. [46:31] And, [46:32] you know, I, [46:33] definitely don't remember thinking anything [46:37] you know, bad about him. [46:39] you know, or thinking he could be that kind of person. [46:42] So that definitely, there have been some doozies like that where [46:46] Did not see that one coming. [46:48] Oh my god. [46:49] I think what's extraordinary about the fact that that happens rarely, [46:53] is that your interviews are 10 minutes long. [46:56] and say it. [46:57] Very little time to actually find all these things, plus their actual product and idea and growth strategy and all these things. Well, you find, you know, a lot can come in reading the application. That's a lot of legwork at the beginning. You read the application, but then the 10 minutes... [47:14] is kind of as long as you need in most cases. Because we found when they were longer, like 20 minutes, you'd know in 10 minutes and be like twiddling your thumbs. [47:23] trying to get through the interview for the next 10 minutes. So we kept them short so we could interview more people. [47:28] But... [47:29] There have definitely been cases where we've interviewed people, accepted them, [47:33] And then very soon afterward, we're sort of like, [47:36] like sort of crestfallen like [47:39] oh, these people are very limp. [47:41] This, what were we thinking? Definitely. [47:45] We've been tricked in that respect. [47:47] All the time.

[47:48] or [47:49] Oh gosh. [47:51] They seemed so impressive in the interview and now [47:54] They're just posers, you know, can't really do anything. Like, definitely I'm tricked all the time in little ways. [48:01] Or like I didn't [48:03] noticed two founders didn't get along and then you know one co-founder goes missing you know a week into the program or something crazy there's all sorts of crazy [48:12] Stuff like that that happened. [48:14] I think in the game you're playing, I would expect some things to slip through. [48:20] You said that [48:22] There's been kind of an operationalization of some of the things you used to look for in founders now that you're not actually in the process. Is there like a Jessica as a service? [48:32] sort of thing. What kind of stuff have they built that [48:35] looks for the sorts of things you used to look for in the interview process. [48:38] No, it's all just stuff... [48:40] An application that automatically flags certain things. I actually don't remember all of them. [48:47] But it's just... [48:49] All it is is a... [48:51] please pay attention to this reader of the application. It's not... [48:55] This disqualifies anyone. It's just, "Please pay attention." [48:59] and those are things like I mentioned, like a really crazy equity structure, [49:05] Founders not quitting their job. [49:07] Things like that, that it's important that someone is [49:12] voting on them [49:13] And then... [49:14] interviewing them knows [49:16] Because I would often, some of the questions I'd ask at the end of the interview, I'd say,

[49:20] it looks like you know you have 90 of the stock and your co-founder only has one [49:26] Can you tell us why that's the case? [49:28] And maybe they could make a case for it. You know, who knows? I, you know, but at least I'd ask. [49:33] So the flags just say, [49:35] Pay attention to it. [49:37] Amazing. [49:38] So for you to zoom out, [49:40] In early stage investing, [49:42] the main thing you need to get right and evaluate is the founder. [49:46] this social radar skill that you've [49:48] had [49:49] From childhood. [49:50] is such an incredible advantage in doing this well. And you could basically say YC is what it is [49:57] because of this unfair advantage that you all had in the early days. [50:02] I'm guessing many people listening to this are like, we need a Jessica on our team. We need to build this skill ourselves. We need to figure out how to... [50:10] Integrate social radaring into our process. I know you're going to hate this question, [50:13] Do you have any advice for people that want to try to [50:16] build the skill, get better at this, [50:19] Notice some of these things. [50:20] I really think that our advantage was that my three co-founders were deeply technical. [50:27] people. And I think a lot of investors... [50:30] back then, [50:31] you know, weren't [50:32] a lot, you know, didn't have that background. And I think that that background changed [50:36] really helped YC [50:38] choose good founders. So I don't want it to [50:42] make it sound like [50:44] you know, [50:45] It was that big of a deal. But [50:47] advice. [50:49] advice for how to hone

[50:53] I mean, I think just try to pay attention to subtle cues. If you really feel like, [50:58] "'Gosh, I am so clueless about these things.' [51:03] try to just tell yourself, okay, I'm going in to evaluate these founders, evaluate this [51:09] investment opportunity. [51:11] I know I'm bad at these kind of judgments. I'm going to remember like, [51:14] Do they seem like they get along? [51:17] Because there are no like trick questions. I don't have any trick questions that you could ask. [51:22] or it's just paying attention. Like, have a conversation. Do they understand their product well? [51:28] Are they defensive? Like maybe have your own little checklist [51:32] that you think about, you don't have to have it written down, but you think about [51:35] And then afterward... [51:37] you spend some time thinking like, were they defensive? Like when I asked them, [51:41] why this is better than the competitor. [51:44] How did that go? [51:45] Or ask them, maybe do have some questions like, if you don't know how long they've known each other, [51:51] Ask them that question. How did you two meet? [51:54] How did you have you have you ever worked together before? How's it going? You just [51:58] Be... [51:59] a little bit more conscious about asking these types of questions to reveal [52:05] like some key [52:07] information for your investment decision. [52:09] That was an awesome summary of a lot of the stuff we talked about. [52:12] If anyone ever doubts that you are very good at this, Paul tweeted this quiz, the Reading the Mind in the Eyes quiz. [52:19] that I took. It's incredibly hard. You basically see a bunch of eyes and you're supposed to judge

[52:24] their motion [52:26] And it's really hard. And you got 36 out of 36. [52:31] Which blows my mind. [52:33] I did nail it. I do have to tell a funny story about this. So, Paul... [52:37] sort of like late at night, [52:38] And he emailed me because I had like gone to bed, but I had my thing. And he emailed me, he's like, check out this quiz. [52:45] I got 25 out of 36. [52:47] What can you get? So I got my computer out because I was like, I have to beat Paul. [52:53] and I did it, and it was really hard. Like, they'd only show the eyes, and then it would say, "What is this person thinking? Are they happy, sad?" But some of them were really hard to distinguish. Are they irritated, or are they angry? [53:08] Like, it's kind of hard to tell the difference between irritated and angry. [53:11] and i remember like saying looking into these people at people's eyes saying [53:17] What are they trying to communicate to me? [53:19] Are they irritated with me? [53:21] or they mad at me kind of thing. [53:24] And as I went through, it would tell you if you got it correct. [53:28] And as I almost got to the end, I was like, oh, my God, this is going to be a near perfect score. I have to nail this. And when I got 36 out of 36, I was like, yes. And I told Paul he tweeted it. [53:39] We then, like a week later, [53:42] had this YC event in London, [53:44] And I swear to God, [53:46] About 10 people came up to me to talk about this iQuiz and how they had not done well. And what was my secret? It was very amusing. I never thought that...

[53:55] Anyone would think it would. [53:57] that interesting. [53:59] I love that there's this thing that totally shows this skill you have that is better than everyone else. I took it. All my friends have taken it after that tweet and [54:07] The highest we've gotten is 31 of all the people I know. [54:10] Really? [54:11] Yeah, and I think when people take it, we'll link to it, they're going to be like, how can you get 36 out of 36? [54:18] You have to look into their eyes and say, what are they trying to tell me? [54:24] I hope you're not trying to tell me like you're full of shit. [54:27] I'm feeling despondent. Just kidding. That's one of the options. I'm like, what does that even mean? [54:32] I know. Well, that's the other thing I told Paul. [54:35] Also the challenge is you really have to understand what each [54:39] Like. [54:40] feeling what that word means he's like oh that didn't even occur to me because he's such a word person and knows like [54:46] the exact definition of every single word, but I thought some people will struggle understanding [54:52] the complexities of the emotion. [54:55] Yeah. [54:55] With the words, I almost felt like I had to do what you did, or just like, what does this word feel like when I'm reading it? [55:02] Let's see if these eyes are despondent. [55:04] I love that trick you shared. So basically you looked at the eyes and you're like, what is this person trying to tell me? [55:09] Yeah. [55:10] That's the best I could do. [55:12] Amazing. So we're going to link to that quiz. I'm curious what people... If you take it, please leave your score in the comments. See if anyone can get anywhere near... [55:19] Jessica, score. [55:20] Okay, so speaking of social radaring, you have a podcast called The Social Radars. Yes! Let's talk about it. Yes, yes, yes.

[55:26] - Okay, yes. - First of all, just why did you decide to start a podcast? There's a lot of podcasts in the world. What made you decide to start one? - Well, I'm really excited that you're asking that question 'cause no one has ever asked me about the social radars. Yes, I mean, it's pretty new, but we launched last year. [55:41] I decided to start the Social Radars because I live off in the English countryside, not really [55:48] as connected as I'd like to be with Silicon Valley, partly by choice, but I do miss it a lot. And I was finding that as I was catching up with [55:57] YC Alumni, [55:58] that would come visit or I'd see. [56:01] I just loved the conversations we were having. And I missed that. I missed that connection with these people. [56:07] and sort of sharing their stories of triumph [56:10] and failure in some cases, but mostly triumph, [56:13] At the same time, [56:15] I became obsessed with this podcast called Smartless. Have you ever heard of it? [56:19] I've heard of it. I haven't listened. [56:21] Okay, so, [56:23] Just for the listeners, [56:24] It is a podcast hosted by three actors, Jason Bateman, Will Arnett, and Sean Hayes. [56:31] And they invite Hollywood people, actors, directors, musicians, sometimes athletes, [56:38] On the show. [56:39] And the thing is, one person, one of the hosts invites the guests, the other two don't know. So there's no preparation. [56:47] And it's the most... [56:49] fascinating thing. I love movies and I love television and I can tell you like another weird eccentric [56:56] sort of gift of mine is I remember every name in Hollywood and know all like their children and all this stuff because I've been reading People magazine since I was 13.

[57:04] So, [57:05] I loved... [57:06] Like you'd learn so much about the actors as a people because they weren't [57:11] talking from a script or their media messages for promoting a movie. It was like just genuine conversations, [57:18] Most of the time these actors knew the people and were friends, [57:22] And I just found it fascinating. I could not stop. And... [57:25] I thought... [57:26] There should be [57:28] like a really informal conversation like this with startup founders so people could [57:33] understand the people behind the startups [57:36] And it's not... [57:37] too scripted and not [57:38] to [57:39] maybe I don't want to say professional because I hope it's professional sounding, but it's [57:44] It's very conversational. [57:45] and authentic. [57:46] And I was trying to mimic that a little bit. [57:50] I convinced my colleague and friend Carolyn Levy, who of course has a full-time [57:56] job being one of the amazing lawyers with NYC and she's super busy [58:01] I convinced her to do it with me. [58:03] So I could have a partner in crime. [58:06] And then [58:07] We just started. And I said, [58:09] We'll do a few episodes, see how it goes. [58:12] And [58:13] We'll keep going if it's fun. [58:15] And I have had [58:16] So much fun. [58:18] catching up with all the people I've interviewed. I mean, at this point, I forget how many [58:22] podcasts I've even done but maybe about 27 ish [58:25] 27 that have launched yet. And there's a few coming out. Season 3, we're still in the middle of that. I'm still editing some and doing some. [58:33] But it's been so much fun, and I love it, and I hope...

[58:36] that people [58:37] Enjoy. [58:39] Listening. I hope I'm not just working this really small corner of the room. I hope people enjoy sort of unstructured... [58:45] conversations. But people open up to me though because what I copied from SmartList [58:52] that I liked. [58:53] You know, they'd say, "Hey, remember when we were at that Oscars party and this happened?" [58:58] because they had that relationship with the people they're interviewing, [59:02] in a lot of cases. I feel like I've had that with a lot of people I'm interviewing and I could say, [59:06] Hey, Brian, remember when you interviewed and brought the cereal boxes? You know, and he could... [59:11] tell he shared that story i don't think i knew it before then that they were on the 101 and i'm [59:17] The phone went out, you know, the reception went out before Paul said that they were accepted. [59:22] So I learn a lot, and it's really just fascinating to me. [59:26] Well, it's an awesome podcast. I've been listening. I'm going to just read some of the guests that you've had on just so people get a sense of who you're interviewing. [59:33] So you actually just had Paul Graham on the podcast. He does very few [59:36] podcast episodes, so that's [59:38] an unfair advantage you have there. [59:40] Patrick and John Collison, Brian Chesky. [59:42] You mentioned Brian Armstrong, Iman Shear, [59:45] Tony Zhu, like... [59:46] Epic people. [59:47] Emmett Shearer, by the way, [59:49] The week after he was named OpenAI CEO for like 72 hours, that one launched. I was like, I could not have planned that timing better. [59:57] Is there an episode you'd recommend people... [1:00:00] start with if they were to start to explore your podcast and get into it honestly like i truly

[1:00:06] Believe this, I'm not BSing you. I think they're all really, really good. And there's so many interesting takeaways from every single one. If I were coming to it for the first time, I'd probably choose, I'd look at the guests and say, [1:00:19] Who am I interested in? Have I stayed at an Airbnb and I want to learn more about that? Or do I use Reddit? [1:00:25] Just see who the guests are and start with someone you're kind of interested in. [1:00:30] And I guarantee you'll, like, learn more about this person. [1:00:34] So across the podcast episodes you've done, I hate when people ask me this question, but I'm going to ask you this question. [1:00:39] Anything you've [1:00:40] Any big lessons you've learned? Any stories that have stuck with you? Any takeaways so far from interviewing all these incredibly [1:00:46] successful founders and people? Oh my god, I love that question. I don't hate that question. Okay, I'm glad. I could talk for an hour just on, I want to like learn from you as an expert podcaster because I'm still a noob here. [1:00:59] Would I have learned the hard way? [1:01:00] and you're probably will nod your head when I say this is that I'm, [1:01:04] I talk way too much. I'm a huge windbag and I hate... [1:01:09] Don't notice it now when I'm just [1:01:11] talking to you and going off and talking, talking, talking, but [1:01:14] When I'm editing the podcast and I'm listening to myself, [1:01:18] Ask a question. [1:01:19] in [1:01:20] 20 sentences when I could ask it in two, [1:01:23] So I've really had to train myself [1:01:26] to keep [1:01:28] things short. Like you want [1:01:30] You want like regular short dialogue? [1:01:33] You know, you know this. [1:01:35] But you also have to interrupt guests if they're going off too much. So, like, the talking of the hosts should be...

[1:01:42] Frequent but short. [1:01:44] That's the lesson that I've learned. [1:01:46] In terms of content... [1:01:49] I mean, every... [1:01:50] Every single episode, [1:01:52] is a gem in its own right. And there aren't like [1:01:56] massive lessons because it's [1:01:58] They're all sort of specific to that person. And I never know exactly which direction we're going to go in when we get into things. But it was interesting. There were definitely some themes. [1:02:08] with like Adora Chung and Tony Zhu, um... [1:02:12] DoorDash, where they said they really made a mistake early on, [1:02:16] scaling into different cities, [1:02:18] before they had nailed the original city. [1:02:22] And that's an important lesson. There's lessons for everyone, I think, in addition to really getting to know [1:02:29] these founders, their personal side, [1:02:32] of their personality, there's some great lessons that they all tell. [1:02:36] I love these lessons. [1:02:37] Is there anything else you've learned about interviewing? That's something I'm always trying to... [1:02:41] get better at. I love this point you made. I say the same thing to every podcaster. You talk too much as a host, you should [1:02:47] Let the guest help. [1:02:48] Just ask the question and let him talk. [1:02:50] Is there anything else that you've learned about just how to interview more effectively? [1:02:53] Remember, I've been interviewing people since YC started because I was working on Founders at Work. [1:03:01] one simultaneously when we started YC. And so that was a collection of interviews [1:03:06] And back then, I can't say I was that good at it. I've gotten much better. And then I've since gone, I used to do a lot of interviews at startup school on stage with people.

[1:03:16] and now the podcast. [1:03:17] I think one thing that [1:03:20] is that the guests trust me [1:03:23] They trust that I'm not going to try to like have a gotcha moment. I'm not trying to lure them into saying anything controversial. [1:03:30] I mean, do I love it when they say something that hasn't been said before? Yes. [1:03:35] But I'm not trying to trick them. [1:03:37] And just like you, I tell them, [1:03:40] You will have a chance to review this. [1:03:42] before it goes public, and I think that [1:03:45] disarms people and they say, OK, I can open up because I know if I regret saying something, it's not like talking to a reporter who's going to publish it. [1:03:55] Like I care about them. I care about making them look good. [1:03:58] And I'd never want to betray their trust. And they know that. So that's part of it, too. [1:04:04] For me, with the podcast, I have some questions that I do ahead of time just so I have something. [1:04:10] down. [1:04:11] But I also just let the conversation go where it's going. And we get into some random tangents [1:04:18] that I find are really fascinating. [1:04:21] Is there a story that stands out to you just like that sticks with you from the interviews that just like, wow, that was such an incredible story someone shared with me or less in a. [1:04:29] The podcast that really sticks with me. [1:04:32] is the Parker Conrad episode. [1:04:36] of rippling. [1:04:38] But we spent a lot of time on Zenefits. [1:04:40] Because if you didn't follow that story years ago,

[1:04:46] The press annihilated him. [1:04:48] And in talking to him, [1:04:51] I learned why. [1:04:53] There was a smear campaign. [1:04:56] you know, paid for [1:04:59] by someone still at Zenefits. [1:05:00] there were [1:05:01] legal threats, [1:05:03] Made. [1:05:04] to force him to sign this legal document that would allow them to [1:05:13] have a non-compete in California. [1:05:16] so that he couldn't start another company. [1:05:18] basically making his life miserable, disparaging him, [1:05:22] stories planted in the press and I had him come on and I had him tell what were the what really happened and [1:05:28] you know, and I [1:05:30] Even I, who have seen [1:05:33] So much shit. [1:05:34] behind the scenes with startups in Silicon Valley over the years, like stuff you just couldn't believe. [1:05:40] This was unbelievable. [1:05:42] And the thing that really sticks with me is that, like, [1:05:46] No reporter ever [1:05:47] Like... [1:05:49] Maybe no reporters listen to it, but [1:05:51] No one said like, "Hey, I got that wrong years ago. I shouldn't have written that. That wasn't true. Let me set the record straight." [1:05:59] So, [1:06:00] He doesn't care. Parker's moved on. He's successful with Rippling. He doesn't think about this stuff. [1:06:06] But I do. I care about justice, you know, and it was-- [1:06:10] horrible thing that was done to him and like it [1:06:13] It affected his health, it affected his life,

[1:06:16] You know? [1:06:17] And... [1:06:19] I just am glad to have sort of [1:06:21] been a conduit to set the record straight. [1:06:24] That's an awesome episode maybe for people to start with if they want to check out the podcast. [1:06:28] And then generally, I just love this rise of ways for tech people to share their story [1:06:34] Without... [1:06:34] this drive to create clicks and create gotcha moments and things like that. I think people call it techno-optimism, this idea of tech is great, technology is doing great things for us. [1:06:44] Let's just tell these stories in a really positive way versus all the harm they're causing technology. Stop. Slow it down. [1:06:49] I just and I just want to have conversations that I personally find interesting. I'm very selfish about it, Lenny. [1:06:55] As long as I have an interesting conversation, I tell Carolyn this all the time. [1:07:00] Like as long as we have like 20 listeners, [1:07:03] That's all I need. 20 really interested listeners. [1:07:07] Um, [1:07:07] We'll keep doing it. [1:07:09] I love that attitude. I wish I had that same feeling. What I look for is, is it growing? That's the thing. I'm like, is it growing at least? If it's growing. [1:07:17] No matter what it is, I'm feeling good. I need to be a little bit more like that. I don't know any of my statistics. What should I, what statistic, you tell me as an experienced podcaster, what statistics should I be, like, have taped up to my mirror every day and track? [1:07:32] There's the correct one, and there's the simple one that I look at, which is just downloads of the episode. It's the most basic one you see everywhere. [1:07:40] But [1:07:40] And downloads is a weird one because they might download it, not listen to it. But that's just the one that podcast platforms. [1:07:46] tell you how many people have downloaded it?

[1:07:48] And [1:07:49] That's the one. [1:07:50] That's the one that just tells you kind of generally, [1:07:53] Are people listening? Are people continuing to listen? Do they cut... [1:07:56] Did they remove it from their phone? [1:07:57] Like in theory, you should be looking at retention, like how many people are finishing the podcast episode. [1:08:02] Can you tell that, though? I thought these platforms don't share that with you. Some do. Some do. Spotify gives you some of that. Apple gives you their... [1:08:10] There's... [1:08:11] The worst part about podcasting is the analytics are extremely bad. [1:08:15] and inconsistent... [1:08:16] But there are some of those stats. [1:08:18] The other one, okay, here's one to pay attention to is number of subscribers. [1:08:22] on the different platforms, people that follow you. That actually is a really important metric to watch. [1:08:26] Number of subscribers. Okay. One thing I also, this is just my personality. [1:08:31] I can't bring myself to do what I want to. [1:08:34] is ask people if you like the social radars like please subscribe [1:08:39] and leave a rating and a review like [1:08:43] I would do anything to have people leave rating and reviews. [1:08:46] Okay, if you're listening and you either check out the podcast or you're already a listener, please... [1:08:51] Leave a rating and a review and subscribe and follow. [1:08:54] Thank you. [1:08:55] Can I ask you a question about podcasting really quickly? Let's do it. When you do a podcast... [1:09:01] After you hang up with a person, can you tell, do you have a gut instinct like, [1:09:05] Oh, that was a really great one. [1:09:08] What's interesting is the ones that I sometimes think, holy moly, that was incredible, don't do as well as I would think. [1:09:14] And sometimes ones I think didn't go amazing actually do a lot better than I think.

[1:09:18] And I think there's like a difference between the energy and the fun of it. [1:09:22] versus like the content and the interesting value of the actual conversation. [1:09:28] And so sometimes you feel like, that was so fun, so good, I loved it. [1:09:32] But people are like, man, I didn't learn anything. [1:09:34] So those are interesting. That's something I've learned. [1:09:36] Okay, yeah, because people come to yours expecting to learn things. That's right. Now I'm a little nervous. I'm going to get axed because I'm not teaching them anything. Yes. [1:09:46] valuable. You're so modest. This was incredible. I think we've taught people a lot of really [1:09:52] important and really actionable things. And I know you don't think you did, but you did. [1:09:56] And with that, [1:09:57] We've covered a ton of ground. We've talked through every single thing that I was hoping we talked through. Is there anything else you wanted to share? [1:10:03] or maybe leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round. [1:10:07] No, I mean, honestly, I can't think of... [1:10:11] I think I win bagged enough. [1:10:14] This was incredible. You talked exactly the right amount of time. [1:10:18] With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got six questions for you. Are you ready? Ready as I'll ever be. Okay. [1:10:26] First question, what are two or three books that you recommended most to other people? [1:10:31] Well, I definitely would recommend, like, my first, second, and third books would all be P.G. Woodhouse books. [1:10:38] Do you know him as an author, Ask Jeeves? [1:10:42] Okay. [1:10:42] So he was an [1:10:44] you know, old school author, and he wrote the Ask Jeeves books about

[1:10:50] the butler and [1:10:52] Not the search engine. Bertie Worcester. [1:10:53] And they're so funny. They're just fabulously written. His use of words makes me laugh so hard. And so I would specifically recommend the starter books that I'd write. He wrote [1:11:07] Tons of books and he lived till he was like 100 years. [1:11:10] He... [1:11:11] start with like very good Jeeves or [1:11:15] Um, [1:11:16] Right-ho Jeeves, carry-on Jeeves, those three. [1:11:20] Um... [1:11:21] are really good. [1:11:23] Good books. And then [1:11:24] I tend to read, so Paul's the big reader in the family. He reads, you know, riveting books like on Roman grains and [1:11:32] anything that has to do with medieval history. [1:11:35] I tend to read biographies of people. And so... [1:11:40] I just, especially musicians, [1:11:43] especially English musicians, strangely. And so I've recommended to a lot of people if you really want a good autobiography, because I sometimes hate autobiographies because I feel like people hold back. [1:11:54] and don't really share. [1:11:55] everything. Keith Richards, his autobiography called Life is really good if you're a fan of the Rolling Stones at all. [1:12:03] That was really good. And then I recently read Barbara Streisand's biography called, I think it's called My Name is Barbara. [1:12:10] something and [1:12:12] I kept thinking as I was reading this, like every female founder [1:12:16] should read this book. [1:12:18] And you're looking at me like that's so random, but...

[1:12:21] It's because [1:12:23] She... [1:12:24] was such a success within this totally male-dominated world of Hollywood, [1:12:29] and just treated like [1:12:31] Garbage. [1:12:32] and dismissed and [1:12:34] called a diva when she was very particular about something [1:12:38] Whereas a man... [1:12:40] would be called, you know, [1:12:42] a great director and she was called a diva. [1:12:45] And I felt like every woman should just read this to inspire them. It was such a great book. Long, but very good. [1:12:52] Incredible recommendations. [1:12:54] Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show? [1:12:57] I don't tend to watch recent movies. I watch... [1:13:00] old school movies like from the 50s through the 90s and stuff. [1:13:04] My favorite new TV show, just off the top of my head right now, is Clarkson's Farm. [1:13:10] Have you heard of that on Amazon? Nope. Jeremy Clarkson, he's in a show called Top Gear... [1:13:17] I don't watch that, but [1:13:18] He [1:13:19] lives out [1:13:20] in the English countryside, he has a farm and he decided that he'd farm it. [1:13:26] And the whole show is about him getting into this business that he knows nothing about. [1:13:31] Everything goes wrong. [1:13:33] but it is hysterical and heartbreaking at the same time i've learned so much about england and [1:13:40] about where I live and the crops that are grown and how hard it is for farmers. He's really shown a light [1:13:47] on the difficulty of being [1:13:49] a farmer these days and it's fabulous Clarkson's farm

[1:13:53] And it's a good, it has some like bad language in it, but I do recommend that kids watch it. [1:13:59] Because it's just a good show to watch as a family, if you can deal with a little... [1:14:04] you know, foul language, foul language, the Brits. [1:14:07] say, drop a lot of F-bombs. [1:14:09] Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, share with people? [1:14:15] find useful in worker and life. [1:14:17] It's so boring, but I always try to treat people the way... [1:14:20] I'd like to be treated myself. [1:14:22] Really is fundamental life lesson. [1:14:26] It's like boring, but so powerful and important. And I try to live that same way. [1:14:32] And I think it's a good reminder, people. Sometimes the most... [1:14:35] I think it was Michael Pollan that said that cliches are [1:14:37] Clichés because they're so true. They're like so true we're tired of hearing it. [1:14:41] Sometimes it's important to be reminded of them. [1:14:44] Who's most influenced you... [1:14:46] in your career? Who do you think of when you're like, this person's really had the most influence on me? [1:14:51] In my career, I definitely have to say my husband, Paul Graham. [1:14:55] I've just learned so much from him. [1:14:58] over the years. [1:15:00] And he's such a good person, and I don't... [1:15:04] I think people who know him [1:15:06] all know that he is [1:15:07] It's just he has such a big... [1:15:10] online personality either through Twitter [1:15:13] or through his essays, [1:15:14] And so, [1:15:15] He has a lot of people that don't like him. [1:15:19] because he also speaks what he believes. [1:15:22] and he is not afraid

[1:15:24] to say anything if he believes it's true and needs to be said. [1:15:29] Whereas I'm the exact opposite. I'm like, oh, I'm not going near that. I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole. I don't even want to get in someone's crosshairs or fight with someone. [1:15:39] And I admire that so much. Like, there's so much that he's done... [1:15:44] with Y Combinator and just [1:15:46] in our personal life that is just so admirable and i i just i've really learned learned a lot from him it's such a boring thing to like learn [1:15:55] from your husband. But [1:15:56] At the same time, I'm going to extend this, I'm going to windbag a little bit longer. [1:16:01] I have learned so much from the [1:16:03] founders that we funded, [1:16:05] I mean, some of them are just incredible people. [1:16:09] and [1:16:10] and have been through so much and survive so much and [1:16:14] built these amazing companies that I couldn't have even imagined when we funded them. [1:16:18] that these companies would be [1:16:21] as successful as they are and they're all [1:16:23] You know, so many of them are just great people and they now teach me things. [1:16:28] Honestly, like Brian Chesky teaches me things. The student has become the master. [1:16:33] He knows so much more about me and [1:16:35] running a business and I often like will go to him for advice. [1:16:39] And so I'm really lucky that [1:16:41] to be surrounded by [1:16:42] So many smart people. [1:16:44] in the startup world because as a startup nerd, [1:16:47] I mean, I could... [1:16:48] talk about startups, [1:16:50] you know, [1:16:51] and think about them all the time, and it's so great to have [1:16:54] all these people around sort of lifting

[1:16:56] "'Lifting me up.' [1:16:58] Would you believe that serial... [1:17:01] experience. [1:17:03] led to a $92 billion business today. I just looked it up, how big they've gotten. [1:17:09] Honestly? [1:17:10] I wouldn't. [1:17:11] And it's, I wish I could say, oh, I knew they'd be this big. Yeah. But the truth is. [1:17:17] With... [1:17:18] all of the super successful startups [1:17:21] Yeah, you can remember feeling very positively about them. [1:17:25] And certainly feeling like as they went along in the first few years, like they're doing really well. [1:17:30] They're really determined [1:17:32] They're doing a great job, but you just never really think, [1:17:35] They themselves probably didn't realize that they'd ever be that big. Let's face it. [1:17:40] That's just the way startups are. [1:17:42] Okay, here's the actual final question. Is there a... [1:17:45] Fun story of early days YC. [1:17:47] Whether it's with [1:17:49] Airbnb founders or Paul or anything that [1:17:52] comes to mind as just like, wow, what a [1:17:54] What a different time that was, or what a surprising time. [1:17:57] I think that happened. It's funny you ask, because actually one of my... [1:18:01] ideas I've had lately is that I want to start thinking about writing [1:18:06] sort of [1:18:06] a YC biography. [1:18:09] kind of book [1:18:10] I don't know when the time is, but the point is I have to remember things because it's hard when it's been 20 years. [1:18:16] To go way back, you have to remember [1:18:19] specific things that happened. I mean, [1:18:22] Well, I see, I just remember the early days being so magical and so hard.

[1:18:27] pure [1:18:28] when we started [1:18:29] Like no one knew about us. [1:18:31] no one was bothering us we just did what we were doing [1:18:35] with no distractions. We were helping, albeit a very small group of founders, you know, eight in that first summer, [1:18:42] Um, [1:18:43] We were just doing what we loved doing. [1:18:45] and growing organically and no one was scrutinizing us [1:18:49] or blaming us for things or [1:18:52] you know, [1:18:53] writing negative, [1:18:54] news stories about us. I mean, the negative [1:18:57] Stories in the press [1:18:58] Because I'm [1:19:00] a people person and I'm very sensitive. [1:19:02] Like Paul's not as sensitive as me. [1:19:04] And so. [1:19:05] he doesn't care if there's a negative story in the press that's not true [1:19:09] Like, I do. It really, like, affected me. And I hated when we got big enough that [1:19:15] you know, people would [1:19:17] lie about us and say bad things. So I look back fondly when we first started [1:19:22] It was the most fun time of my life, the most productive time of my life. [1:19:27] Didn't have kids then. [1:19:28] And I could just help the founders and like learn about all these exciting things. [1:19:33] things that happened in the startup world because it was new to me then the startup world was new when we started Y Combinator so I had a lot of learning to do and I met all these cool people. [1:19:43] And it was just very authentic. Like no one was doing it. [1:19:47] to be cool. [1:19:48] Okay, well, let me ask maybe one other question. Was there a moment when you felt like YC... [1:19:52] was working, when it felt like, "Wow, maybe this is gonna make it." [1:19:56] There were sort of two moments that I remember

[1:19:59] I felt like YC was working. Because remember, we started Y Combinator as 100% like an experiment. [1:20:07] Could we fund... [1:20:08] younger founders, [1:20:10] with small amounts of money. [1:20:13] That was it. Then that summer we created this batch investment idea and then that became the idea of funding them in batches. [1:20:20] And that was the first "aha!" moment was after that first summer [1:20:24] when we invited people to participate in the Summer Founders Program, which is what it was called. And remember, that [1:20:31] for summer, had [1:20:32] Sam Altman. [1:20:34] Emmett Sheeran, Justin Kahn. [1:20:36] Alexis and Steve of Reddit. [1:20:39] you know, they were in the first batch. [1:20:42] And the batch thing worked really well because they all became friends, [1:20:46] we could have dinner every week and bring in guest speakers and then introduce them to investors at demo day and [1:20:54] That whole batch investing thing was an aha moment, and we said... [1:20:58] Oh my gosh. [1:20:59] Let's [1:21:00] keep doing this. This really works. [1:21:03] And... [1:21:04] So we said that was a moment where we knew we were on to something. And that's when we then did it in California in the winter. [1:21:11] But, [1:21:11] The second big moment [1:21:14] was probably, I remember it was like a year later, and no reporter would write about us. Investors really didn't, [1:21:24] think that much of us. But I remember when [1:21:28] Reddit got bought by Condé Nast in 2006.

[1:21:32] It was... [1:21:33] That... [1:21:34] And then at the same time, I think it was like Charles River Ventures or one of these Boston, maybe it wasn't even Boston, but it was a VC firm. [1:21:41] did like the seed program, [1:21:44] where they invested maybe $100K in startups. And the press, like... [1:21:48] loved that they like wrote all about this $100,000 investment [1:21:54] and they'd sort of mention Y Combinator, [1:21:57] as doing small investments. [1:21:58] and then that coupled with the Reddit press [1:22:01] sort of made us feel like, oh my gosh, we are sort of legitimate. [1:22:05] in the eyes of outsiders, became sort of aware of who we were. And I sort of felt like, [1:22:10] We've arrived. We've been in the newspaper. You know, we've been in the press. [1:22:14] Like people are finally paying attention. [1:22:17] That's amazing. And it's funny that Reddit just went public. It's kind of the other side of that coin. I know. Pretty impressive. I mean... [1:22:23] Definitely didn't necessarily think that was going to be happening. [1:22:27] I know you have to run, but I can't help but ask around what you just talked about, where you decided to invest in batches. You wrote this really interesting article. [1:22:35] point that none of us had any experience angel investing. [1:22:38] And that's where the idea of funding startups and badges came from. We decided to fund a bunch of startups at once during the summer so that we could learn how to invest. [1:22:46] And I love that. [1:22:46] your inexperience in doing it. [1:22:49] created the structure, like that unique [1:22:51] Weakness slash strength is like what led to the... [1:22:55] YC operates and I think that's really interesting. [1:22:58] yeah yeah we definitely did wanted to learn more about how to be investors so that's when

[1:23:03] we decided to do this, you know, summer founders program where we could [1:23:08] invest in a whole bunch at once and then the plan was to go to asynchronous investing like normal investors [1:23:14] But we realized that there was something magical about this batch thing. [1:23:17] So sometimes, [1:23:19] I always say we love domain experts, but sometimes maybe ignorance [1:23:23] is sort of bliss and you just discover new things. [1:23:27] Jessica, this was everything I hoped it would be. We covered so much ground. I think people are going to love it no matter what you think. Oh, good. [1:23:34] Good, good, good. [1:23:35] Two final questions. Where can folks check out the social radars and anything else you want people to know about? And how can listeners be useful to you? [1:23:41] Well, you check out the social radars and all the, you know, [1:23:45] Podcast platforms, Apple, Spotify, Spotify, [1:23:48] Amazon, all of those. [1:23:50] And then there's a website, but [1:23:52] socialradars.com [1:23:55] And... [1:23:55] They can be helpful by just... [1:23:57] Listening to it and spreading the word because I don't do [1:24:01] any marketing for it besides like posting on twitter. [1:24:05] just because I'm I'm [1:24:07] You know, it's expensive doing a podcast and stuff, so I don't do any marketing. [1:24:12] So, [1:24:12] if it resonates with you, if you find an episode interesting, [1:24:16] Please spread the word. [1:24:18] and write a review. [1:24:19] and rating. [1:24:21] I was just going to add that. I'm glad you threw that in there. [1:24:23] Jessica, thank you so much for being here. [1:24:25] Thank you so much, Lenny. It was a lot of fun. [1:24:28] Same for me. Bye, everyone. [1:24:30] Bye.